BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

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BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

whitekn3
I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack.  Even after doing the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug in the external battery pack.  

Is this normal?  If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems.  (Manual Self test passes, Auto-test passes.)  However, when the power recently went off run time was very short!  (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not help.  I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem weak to me.  (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging it from BR1500.  13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short time.)
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Re: BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

Pavel Boček

Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02 error IIRC.


Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually measuring anything.


That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little" while after full recharge. The other question is if it is actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both internal and external batteries.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.

Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)



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Re: BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

Ted Mittelstaedt-5

Hi All,

OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.

The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC Backups 1500 RS.  This is buried in the user manual here:

http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 RS:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 G:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G

Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the 1500G is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work - except that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really think you need to contact APC's technical support.

IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug in a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work. 

OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or external battery packs to a BackUPS.  The BackUPS line is, as Pavel said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS.  My own experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd, sometimes they work - sometimes they don't.  I have had BX1500Gs work, and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd.  I've also had BackUPS ES's -not- work.

Now as for the batteries themselves-

The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack.  But, all that this is, is 2 12v 18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and the front terminals connected together and the back terminals connected to a plug.

12v is resting battery voltage.  Not 13, not 12.7, not 14.   12.0v!  I have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I assure you YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring terminal voltage.  I also do NOT trust those "internal resistance" digital battery testers.  In my experience the only way to test is with a resistance pile.  For $20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for testing car batteries with a meter and resistance pile in it.  Take a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's fully charged, and apply the tester, then tap the test switch for a second and observe the meter needle.  Then do the same test to your used/charged batteries.  If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection - the battery is shot.

You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.

Ted

On 5/18/2017 9:08 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:

Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02 error IIRC.


Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually measuring anything.


That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little" while after full recharge. The other question is if it is actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both internal and external batteries.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.

Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)



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RE: BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

whitekn3

I disassembled the external battery pack and installed two good batteries, that had been charged with a general purpose “microprocessor” charger, then plugged it back in to BR1500G.  At that point the estimated runtime jumped from 12 minutes to 47 minutes, so it obviously recognized the external pack.

 

As I do not have a good tester as suggested by one post, that route was not an option.  I did plug the batteries into another APC unit and  put a 100 watt light bulb load on it.  Discharged it and watched the runtime via another computer.  Again, those batteries seemed to be ok.

 

Then I recharged the batteries used in the external test, with the external charger, and was surprised to see they seem to have been rejuevenated somewhat.  Again, I only have the voltage and time decay plots that I manually make to evaluate the units.

 

At this point, I suspect the batteries in the external pack are weak (3-4 years old), and I suspect the BR1500G struggles to keep them properly charged.  (It has a total of 6 to charge, or 54 AH.  And it has had multiple short outages before the recent hours long outages.)

 

Thanks for all the comments.  They helped me sort it out.

 

Royce Fessenden

White Knight Software www.WhiteKnightSw.com 417.766.1852  [hidden email]

 

From: Ted Mittelstaedt-5 [via Apcupsd UPS control software] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 2:41 AM
To: whitekn3 <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

 

Hi All,

OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.

The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC Backups 1500 RS.  This is buried in the user manual here:

http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 RS:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 G:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G

Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the 1500G is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work - except that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really think you need to contact APC's technical support.

IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug in a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work. 

OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or external battery packs to a BackUPS.  The BackUPS line is, as Pavel said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS.  My own experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd, sometimes they work - sometimes they don't.  I have had BX1500Gs work, and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd.  I've also had BackUPS ES's -not- work.

Now as for the batteries themselves-

The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack.  But, all that this is, is 2 12v 18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and the front terminals connected together and the back terminals connected to a plug.

12v is resting battery voltage.  Not 13, not 12.7, not 14.   12.0v!  I have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I assure you YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring terminal voltage.  I also do NOT trust those "internal resistance" digital battery testers.  In my experience the only way to test is with a resistance pile.  For $20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for testing car batteries with a meter and resistance pile in it.  Take a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's fully charged, and apply the tester, then tap the test switch for a second and observe the meter needle.  Then do the same test to your used/charged batteries.  If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection - the battery is shot.

You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.

Ted

On 5/18/2017 9:08 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:

Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02 error IIRC.

 

Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually measuring anything.

 

That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little" while after full recharge. The other question is if it is actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both internal and external batteries.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: whitekn3 [hidden email]
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.

Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)



--
View this message in context: http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
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Re: BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

Pavel Boček
In reply to this post by Ted Mittelstaedt-5
Well the idea behind these more powerfull RS models is that they have fan, so they are supposed to work for extended periods without overheating (and exploding). Though the RS is prone to failing, blasting transistors, even with just the basic internal pack (as it is just not robust enough and the protection circuitry is often too slow to survive what Smart-UPS survives over and over).


As for meters, there are very basic meters, pretty much childs toy, and than there are very expensive pro meters. I only know about one taiwanese meter comparable to the japanese ones and it costs 2/5 their price, but is still expensive. There is no reason why this should not be accurate, accumulator is not that much far from capacitor (dry one, but wet behave very much the same) and the technique to measure them is often similar. What's more important is that ESR is only one of few important parameters and alone it won't tell that much.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


Hi All,

OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.

The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC Backups 1500 RS.  This is buried in the user manual here:

http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 RS:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 G:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G

Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the 1500G is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work - except that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really think you need to contact APC's technical support.

IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug in a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work. 

OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or external battery packs to a BackUPS.  The BackUPS line is, as Pavel said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS.  My own experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd, sometimes they work - sometimes they don't.  I have had BX1500Gs work, and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd.  I've also had BackUPS ES's -not- work.

Now as for the batteries themselves-

The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack.  But, all that this is, is 2 12v 18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and the front terminals connected together and the back terminals connected to a plug.

12v is resting battery voltage.  Not 13, not 12.7, not 14.   12.0v!  I have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I assure you YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring terminal voltage.  I also do NOT trust those "internal resistance" digital battery testers.  In my experience the only way to test is with a resistance pile.  For $20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for testing car batteries with a meter and resistance pile in it.  Take a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's fully charged, and apply the tester, then tap the test switch for a second and observe the meter needle.  Then do the same test to your used/charged batteries.  If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection - the battery is shot.

You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.

Ted

On 5/18/2017 9:08 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:

Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02 error IIRC.


Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually measuring anything.


That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little" while after full recharge. The other question is if it is actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both internal and external batteries.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.

Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)



--
View this message in context: http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

Ted Mittelstaedt-5
This is exactly why I recommend pile testing.  With resistance testing
the only thing you are measuring is pure current and even the cheapest
and worst VOM on the market will work.  All you are doing is making a
comparison measurement.  Pile+meter on good battery, look at where the
needle deflects to.  Pile+meter on unknown battery, look at where the
needle deflects to.

With experience this will give you all you need to know about the state
of a lead acid battery.

A "weak" lead acid battery is merely a lead acid batter with higher
internal resistance because it's in that region of where significant
sulfation has happened but not enough to completely block current flow.

Sulfation in UPS batteries isn't caused by multiple short or even long
outages.

It is caused by the charger in the UPS not having the correct settings
for the battery - and for years and years of consistent undercharging.

Both overcharging and undercharging wrecks lead acid batteries and gel
cells are very sensitive to it.  Undercharging causes sulfation and then
eventually no matter how much charge current you dump into it, the
battery will never fully charge - and during discharge you get limited
current flow.   Overcharging causes the electrolyte to boil away and
fail to recombine into the gel again, then the battery balloons up and
ruptures.


Ted

On 5/19/2017 8:34 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:

> Well the idea behind these more powerfull RS models is that they have
> fan, so they are supposed to work for extended periods without
> overheating (and exploding). Though the RS is prone to failing, blasting
> transistors, even with just the basic internal pack (as it is just not
> robust enough and the protection circuitry is often too slow to survive
> what Smart-UPS survives over and over).
>
>
> As for meters, there are very basic meters, pretty much childs toy, and
> than there are very expensive pro meters. I only know about one
> taiwanese meter comparable to the japanese ones and it costs 2/5 their
> price, but is still expensive. There is no reason why this should not be
> accurate, accumulator is not that much far from capacitor (dry one, but
> wet behave very much the same) and the technique to measure them is
> often similar. What's more important is that ESR is only one of few
> important parameters and alone it won't tell that much.
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní e-mail ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 19. 5. 2017 9:41:14
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
>
>
>     Hi All,
>
>     OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.
>
>     The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC
>     Backups 1500 RS.  This is buried in the user manual here:
>
>     http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf
>
>     Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 RS:
>
>     http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true
>
>     Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 G:
>
>     http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G
>
>     Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the
>     1500G is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work -
>     except that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really
>     think you need to contact APC's technical support.
>
>     IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug
>     in a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work.
>
>     OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or
>     external battery packs to a BackUPS.  The BackUPS line is, as Pavel
>     said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS.  My own
>     experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd,
>     sometimes they work - sometimes they don't.  I have had BX1500Gs
>     work, and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd.  I've also had BackUPS
>     ES's -not- work.
>
>     Now as for the batteries themselves-
>
>     The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack.  But, all that this is, is 2
>     12v 18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and
>     the front terminals connected together and the back terminals
>     connected to a plug.
>
>     12v is resting battery voltage.  Not 13, not 12.7, not 14.   12.0v!
>     I have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I
>     assure you YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring
>     terminal voltage.  I also do NOT trust those "internal resistance"
>     digital battery testers.  In my experience the only way to test is
>     with a resistance pile.  For $20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for
>     testing car batteries with a meter and resistance pile in it.  Take
>     a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's fully charged, and apply
>     the tester, then tap the test switch for a second and observe the
>     meter needle.  Then do the same test to your used/charged
>     batteries.  If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection
>     - the battery is shot.
>
>     You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for
>     battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.
>
>     Ted
>
>     On 5/18/2017 9:08 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
>
>         Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a
>         dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has
>         display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get
>         the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After
>         all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02
>         error IIRC.
>
>
>         Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full
>         discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed
>         had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less
>         just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually
>         measuring anything.
>
>
>         That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell
>         whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are
>         just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable
>         and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy
>         something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable
>         and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save
>         considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid
>         should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little"
>         while after full recharge. The other question is if it is
>         actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units
>         is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both
>         internal and external batteries.
>
>
>         --
>         S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
>         Pavel Boček
>         Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         +420 739 190 151
>         http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>         aj./capacitors and more)
>         http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
>         ---------- Původní e-mail ----------
>         Od: whitekn3 <[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         Komu: [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
>         Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
>
>
>             I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack.
>             Even after doing
>             the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not
>             change when I plug
>             in the external battery pack.
>
>             Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?
>
>             I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery
>             problems. (Manual Self
>             test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power
>             recently went off
>             run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).
>
>             I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and
>             that did not
>             help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit
>             and they seem
>             weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open
>             after unplugging
>             it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v
>             after a short
>             time.)
>
>
>
>             --
>             View this message in context:
>             http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
>             Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>             Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>             engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>             _______________________________________________
>             Apcupsd-users mailing list
>             [hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>         engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Apcupsd-users mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>     engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>     http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
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>     [hidden email]
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>

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Re: BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.

Pavel Boček

I think it's kinda more complicated, battery can have high ESR and almost nominal capacity, or almost nominal ESR and low capacity. With those devices you describe you can only aproximatelly tell if the ESR is still low enough (=battery can provide high current) but you have no idea about the capacity (how long is it going to last when being discharged).


There are almost no gel accumulators, definitelly not for UPS, those are all AGM, this is common mistake.


Also many more factors than just the charging voltage play a role in battery life, besides material/chemistry quality for example temperature, the frequency of discharging, the depth of discharge etc. For everybody who's interested in this subject, there is wonderfull material here http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


This is exactly why I recommend pile testing. With resistance testing
the only thing you are measuring is pure current and even the cheapest
and worst VOM on the market will work. All you are doing is making a
comparison measurement. Pile+meter on good battery, look at where the
needle deflects to. Pile+meter on unknown battery, look at where the
needle deflects to.

With experience this will give you all you need to know about the state
of a lead acid battery.

A "weak" lead acid battery is merely a lead acid batter with higher
internal resistance because it's in that region of where significant
sulfation has happened but not enough to completely block current flow.

Sulfation in UPS batteries isn't caused by multiple short or even long
outages.

It is caused by the charger in the UPS not having the correct settings
for the battery - and for years and years of consistent undercharging.

Both overcharging and undercharging wrecks lead acid batteries and gel
cells are very sensitive to it. Undercharging causes sulfation and then
eventually no matter how much charge current you dump into it, the
battery will never fully charge - and during discharge you get limited
current flow. Overcharging causes the electrolyte to boil away and
fail to recombine into the gel again, then the battery balloons up and
ruptures.


Ted

On 5/19/2017 8:34 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:

> Well the idea behind these more powerfull RS models is that they have
> fan, so they are supposed to work for extended periods without
> overheating (and exploding). Though the RS is prone to failing, blasting
> transistors, even with just the basic internal pack (as it is just not
> robust enough and the protection circuitry is often too slow to survive
> what Smart-UPS survives over and over).
>
>
> As for meters, there are very basic meters, pretty much childs toy, and
> than there are very expensive pro meters. I only know about one
> taiwanese meter comparable to the japanese ones and it costs 2/5 their
> price, but is still expensive. There is no reason why this should not be
> accurate, accumulator is not that much far from capacitor (dry one, but
> wet behave very much the same) and the technique to measure them is
> often similar. What's more important is that ESR is only one of few
> important parameters and alone it won't tell that much.
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní e-mail ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 19. 5. 2017 9:41:14
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.
>
> The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC
> Backups 1500 RS. This is buried in the user manual here:
>
> http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf
>
> Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 RS:
>
> http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true
>
> Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 G:
>
> http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G
>
> Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the
> 1500G is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work -
> except that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really
> think you need to contact APC's technical support.
>
> IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug
> in a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work.
>
> OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or
> external battery packs to a BackUPS. The BackUPS line is, as Pavel
> said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS. My own
> experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd,
> sometimes they work - sometimes they don't. I have had BX1500Gs
> work, and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd. I've also had BackUPS
> ES's -not- work.
>
> Now as for the batteries themselves-
>
> The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack. But, all that this is, is 2
> 12v 18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and
> the front terminals connected together and the back terminals
> connected to a plug.
>
> 12v is resting battery voltage. Not 13, not 12.7, not 14. 12.0v!
> I have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I
> assure you YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring
> terminal voltage. I also do NOT trust those "internal resistance"
> digital battery testers. In my experience the only way to test is
> with a resistance pile. For $20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for
> testing car batteries with a meter and resistance pile in it. Take
> a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's fully charged, and apply
> the tester, then tap the test switch for a second and observe the
> meter needle. Then do the same test to your used/charged
> batteries. If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection
> - the battery is shot.
>
> You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for
> battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.
>
> Ted
>
> On 5/18/2017 9:08 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
>
> Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a
> dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has
> display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get
> the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After
> all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02
> error IIRC.
>
>
> Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full
> discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed
> had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less
> just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually
> measuring anything.
>
>
> That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell
> whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are
> just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable
> and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy
> something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable
> and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save
> considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid
> should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little"
> while after full recharge. The other question is if it is
> actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units
> is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both
> internal and external batteries.
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> aj./capacitors and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní e-mail ----------
> Od: whitekn3 <[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
> Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
>
>
> I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack.
> Even after doing
> the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not
> change when I plug
> in the external battery pack.
>
> Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?
>
> I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery
> problems. (Manual Self
> test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power
> recently went off
> run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).
>
> I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and
> that did not
> help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit
> and they seem
> weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open
> after unplugging
> it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v
> after a short
> time.)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Apcupsd-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apcupsd-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
> http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>

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