Refurbishing old APC UPSes

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Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Pavel Boček

I have yet to see an APC unit where at least some of them 22uF capacitors are not failing at least, if they are not dead for a long time already, so maybe check it again. The older units had some quality caps though often the 22uF ones were some C(r)apXon or something similar, and those were of course bad. The newer the version, the worse caps they used, with pretty much expected results…


I suggest opening a thread at BadCaps forums here: http://www.badcaps.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=32 maybe we'll think of something


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---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <[hidden email]>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 16:36:48
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes


Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.

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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
In reply to this post by David Ranch
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
Check components: R118 - 100k 1%, R119 - 22.1k 1% (these two control the charger voltage, might be out of tolerance, the 100k resistor value often drifts with aging), Q5 FET, R49 - 200k 5% R48 - 10k 5%, Q37, Q6 (Q37 and Q6 are less likely to be the problem, touch these only if everything else fails)

2017-03-25 17:15 GMT+01:00 Mihalik Máté <[hidden email]>:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch
In reply to this post by Mihalik Máté

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David



On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <[hidden email]>):
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch

I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here.  This might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.  The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.  It's not the right on but it's close in many places.

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:40 PM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <[hidden email]>):
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch

Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom of the PCB. 

Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended to check?

   http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:55 PM, David Ranch wrote:

I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here.  This might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.  The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.  It's not the right on but it's close in many places.

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:40 PM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <[hidden email]>):
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.



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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Pavel Boček

The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996 so it's over two decades old.


The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series? Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets. One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.


Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <[hidden email]>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 0:14:59
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes



Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom of the PCB. 

Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended to check?

   http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:55 PM, David Ranch wrote:

I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here.  This might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.  The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.  It's not the right on but it's close in many places.

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:40 PM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <[hidden email]>):
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

William P.N. Smith
Wow, great resource!

Anyone know a source for data sheets for the ICs?  I've been trying to determine the function of VR1, which is connected to one of the inputs of an APC2010, but Google either finds a chip resistor or a twisty little maze of 'data sheet' click-bait sites, all alike (in not having the data Sheet)

Thanks!

William P N Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.

On Mar 26, 2017, at 6:41 PM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]> wrote:

The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996 so it's over two decades old.


The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series? Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets. One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.


Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <[hidden email]>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 0:14:59
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes



Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom of the PCB. 

Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended to check?

   http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:55 PM, David Ranch wrote:

I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here.  This might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.  The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.  It's not the right on but it's close in many places.

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:40 PM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <[hidden email]>):
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch
In reply to this post by Pavel Boček

Hello Pavel,

The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996 so it's over two decades old.


Yeah though I sure would like to be able to prove the IC is bad before removing it and putting in a PULL in it's place and hoping for any better results.


The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series?


The seven orange caps are labeled on one side:
   Siemens
   22uF (m)
   50V
   85degree C
   85049
On the side indicating polarity, it also has a "FD"


Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets.


The cheap multimeter I have here that measures C doesn't do that via probes.. it expects the component to be dropped into it's own slot connectors.  I'd consider buying a capacitance meter (ideally it would measure inductance too) if someone could recommend a good one at a decent price.  As far as ESR, I have a well regarded Anatek Blue ESR Tester) where I see ESRs of:

C13: 2.2 ohms
C34 : 3.0
C35: 4.9

C82: 1.9

C53: 2.3
C54: 2.2

C48: 1.8 (violet cap - "100uF 10V - brand seems to be "Surge" (M) 85degree C; 9602


C37: 1.3

C40: 2.8 (black cap - 33uF 35V CKRM - brand seems to be "iC" B 86degree C

--

Two big caps (light blue vertical)
(Aero M; assembled in mexico;
2700uF 40V 105C
VPR272M040N2L3B
202-0222
677-9624

C22: 0.08
C23: 0.09

--

one large yellow cap (on it's side)
APC
240-0200-A
20uF
KM50VAC
96-13



One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.


Ok.  I'm willing to try anything as I've already considered this UPS a complete loss.  If I can recover it, great and maybe I save myself $479 in not buying a new SMT1500 (I want full smart support from apcupsd).  If I kill this old US, that's ok.  The other email threads going on right now are right on that UPSes don't last forever but I'm willing to try and fix it.  ~$500 in savings is nice if it can be had.


Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.


I've written down other various notes of the voltage and current the board was supplying to the batteries when it should have been charging them if it would be helpful.  Ultimately, this 24V (dual 12v 12aH) battery set was never getting enough current (though I think the voltage was ok).

--David

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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch
In reply to this post by William P.N. Smith

Yes.. I think I got that PDF off one of those ClickBait sites though I couldn't find any viruses in it etc (you've been warned :-)

As far as VR1, I initially thought it might control the float voltage for the UPS but moving it didn't change a thing.  Then again, my beige 1996-era UPS has failed so maybe this is part of my problem.

--david



On 03/26/2017 04:20 PM, William Smith wrote:
Wow, great resource!

Anyone know a source for data sheets for the ICs?  I've been trying to determine the function of VR1, which is connected to one of the inputs of an APC2010, but Google either finds a chip resistor or a twisty little maze of 'data sheet' click-bait sites, all alike (in not having the data Sheet)

Thanks!


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Pavel Boček
In reply to this post by David Ranch
Ah, Siemens. I think they din't make caps for a very long time. These values are still OK, if also the capacity is good, than try those resistors mentioned…

--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <[hidden email]>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 2:01:51
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes



Hello Pavel,

The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996 so it's over two decades old.


Yeah though I sure would like to be able to prove the IC is bad before removing it and putting in a PULL in it's place and hoping for any better results.


The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series?


The seven orange caps are labeled on one side:
   Siemens
   22uF (m)
   50V
   85degree C
   85049
On the side indicating polarity, it also has a "FD"


Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets.


The cheap multimeter I have here that measures C doesn't do that via probes.. it expects the component to be dropped into it's own slot connectors.  I'd consider buying a capacitance meter (ideally it would measure inductance too) if someone could recommend a good one at a decent price.  As far as ESR, I have a well regarded Anatek Blue ESR Tester) where I see ESRs of:

C13: 2.2 ohms
C34 : 3.0
C35: 4.9

C82: 1.9

C53: 2.3
C54: 2.2

C48: 1.8 (violet cap - "100uF 10V - brand seems to be "Surge" (M) 85degree C; 9602


C37: 1.3

C40: 2.8 (black cap - 33uF 35V CKRM - brand seems to be "iC" B 86degree C

--

Two big caps (light blue vertical)
(Aero M; assembled in mexico;
2700uF 40V 105C
VPR272M040N2L3B
202-0222
677-9624

C22: 0.08
C23: 0.09

--

one large yellow cap (on it's side)
APC
240-0200-A
20uF
KM50VAC
96-13



One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.


Ok.  I'm willing to try anything as I've already considered this UPS a complete loss.  If I can recover it, great and maybe I save myself $479 in not buying a new SMT1500 (I want full smart support from apcupsd).  If I kill this old US, that's ok.  The other email threads going on right now are right on that UPSes don't last forever but I'm willing to try and fix it.  ~$500 in savings is nice if it can be had.


Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.


I've written down other various notes of the voltage and current the board was supplying to the batteries when it should have been charging them if it would be helpful.  Ultimately, this 24V (dual 12v 12aH) battery set was never getting enough current (though I think the voltage was ok).

--David
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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
In reply to this post by David Ranch
Yes, we are talking about the same board here. Your best bet is checking those components. I wish you good luck with it, I hope you can find the issue. 

2017. márc. 27. de. 12:13 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom of the PCB. 

Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended to check?

   http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:55 PM, David Ranch wrote:

I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here.  This might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.  The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.  It's not the right on but it's close in many places.

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:40 PM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <[hidden email]>):
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.



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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
In reply to this post by William P.N. Smith
I think VR1 is responsible for sensing the current (load level), so it is best not to adjust it in any way. Any smart ups model above first or second generation have most of the parameters set by software, calibrated specifically to the components of the board it is installed on (one exception might be the load level, as it is in this case with VR1 I think). This means that for any smart ups model made after 1994 you either have to calibrate the settings via serial port, or find the corresponding precision resistors responsible for measuring the values of interest and replace those (eg. input line voltage sense, battery charger voltage, etc...)

2017-03-27 1:20 GMT+02:00 William Smith <[hidden email]>:
Wow, great resource!

Anyone know a source for data sheets for the ICs?  I've been trying to determine the function of VR1, which is connected to one of the inputs of an APC2010, but Google either finds a chip resistor or a twisty little maze of 'data sheet' click-bait sites, all alike (in not having the data Sheet)

Thanks!

William P N Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.

On Mar 26, 2017, at 6:41 PM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]> wrote:

The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996 so it's over two decades old.


The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series? Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets. One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.


Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
<a href="tel:+420%20739%20190%20151" value="+420739190151" target="_blank">+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <[hidden email]>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 0:14:59
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes



Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom of the PCB. 

Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended to check?

   http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:55 PM, David Ranch wrote:

I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here.  This might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.  The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.  It's not the right on but it's close in many places.

--David


On 03/25/2017 12:40 PM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <[hidden email]>):
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch
In reply to this post by Mihalik Máté

I had some more time to look at this UPS:

R118 - 100k 1% :: measured 71.9K (color codes says it should be: 70K - violet black black brown brown)
   - your expected resistor value doesn't match up here

R119 - 22.1k 1% :: measured 20.72K (color codes says it should be: 22.1K - OK

Q5 FET - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

R49 - 200k 5% :: measured 96.5K  (color codes says it should be: 100K not 200k)
   - your expected resistor value doesn't match up here

R48 - 10k 5% :: 9.91K (color codes says it should be: 10K) - OK

Q37 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

Q6 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

--David


On 03/25/2017 10:29 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Check components: R118 - 100k 1%, R119 - 22.1k 1% (these two control the charger voltage, might be out of tolerance, the 100k resistor value often drifts with aging), Q5 FET, R49 - 200k 5% R48 - 10k 5%, Q37, Q6 (Q37 and Q6 are less likely to be the problem, touch these only if everything else fails)


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
Yeah, some value deviations may happen depending on board revision and available components in the factory at the time of manufacture. You cannot reliably test transistors inside the circuit, you need to remove them and use your multimeter's diode check function to test them. There are a couple of videos on youtube on how to conduct basic test on FETs and transistors. Note that passing those tests does not always mean that the component is 100% ok but helps to filter out obvious issues with it. 

2017. márc. 29. du. 10:09 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <[hidden email]>):

I had some more time to look at this UPS:

R118 - 100k 1% :: measured 71.9K (color codes says it should be: 70K - violet black black brown brown)
   - your expected resistor value doesn't match up here

R119 - 22.1k 1% :: measured 20.72K (color codes says it should be: 22.1K - OK

Q5 FET - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

R49 - 200k 5% :: measured 96.5K  (color codes says it should be: 100K not 200k)
   - your expected resistor value doesn't match up here

R48 - 10k 5% :: 9.91K (color codes says it should be: 10K) - OK

Q37 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

Q6 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

--David


On 03/25/2017 10:29 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:
Check components: R118 - 100k 1%, R119 - 22.1k 1% (these two control the charger voltage, might be out of tolerance, the 100k resistor value often drifts with aging), Q5 FET, R49 - 200k 5% R48 - 10k 5%, Q37, Q6 (Q37 and Q6 are less likely to be the problem, touch these only if everything else fails)


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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

David Ranch

Hello Mihalik,

Yeah, some value deviations may happen depending on board revision and available components in the factory at the time of manufacture.

Ok.. understood though if R118 should be 70K and I measured it at 71.9K with an older Fluke 75 DVM, that puts it at 2.7% of 70k.  Do you think this out of spec resistor could really make the charger not create any real current?  I kinda doubt it.


You cannot reliably test transistors inside the circuit, you need to remove them and use your multimeter's diode check function to test them. There are a couple of videos on youtube on how to conduct basic test on FETs and transistors. Note that passing those tests does not always mean that the component is 100% ok but helps to filter out obvious issues with it.

Ok.. I'll give those a try when I get a chance to pull them out of the PCB.

--David

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Re: Refurbishing old APC UPSes

Mihalik Máté
I don't think 2.7%  higher resistance would cause that much trouble. If anything, the charging voltage should be slightly higher/lower, depending on how the IC senses the reference through the resistor.

2017-03-29 23:59 GMT+02:00 David Ranch <[hidden email]>:

Hello Mihalik,

Yeah, some value deviations may happen depending on board revision and available components in the factory at the time of manufacture.

Ok.. understood though if R118 should be 70K and I measured it at 71.9K with an older Fluke 75 DVM, that puts it at 2.7% of 70k.  Do you think this out of spec resistor could really make the charger not create any real current?  I kinda doubt it.


You cannot reliably test transistors inside the circuit, you need to remove them and use your multimeter's diode check function to test them. There are a couple of videos on youtube on how to conduct basic test on FETs and transistors. Note that passing those tests does not always mean that the component is 100% ok but helps to filter out obvious issues with it.

Ok.. I'll give those a try when I get a chance to pull them out of the PCB.

--David

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