What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

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What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

ferg22
THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.

I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.

I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
        -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
        -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
        -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
        -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
        -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
        -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.

Thanks in advance Fergus




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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Ted Mittelstaedt-5
Hi Fergus,

Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:

1) sizing and runtime.  APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:

Regular
Extended Length (indicated by the X)
Online

A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
minutes.  Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
way.   That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
and quite small batteries.

XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
packs added.

Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
main power and inverter power.

To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.

2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.   You must add probes
to get them to measure external temp.  Back-UPS generally don't display
any temps.

3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
and allowed to completely charge.   The second is about halfway through
the battery's lifespan.   It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
lifespan)

4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
shortens it's lifespan.   I think you probably can get about 10
"flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk.  And, only when it's new.
Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
will kill it.

5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.

6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops.  Since
the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
and that's right during the time the PC is booting.  Basically, if the
machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.

Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
  For that you need a generator.

Ted

On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:

> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>
> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
>
> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>         -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>
> Thanks in advance Fergus
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Apcupsd-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>

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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Lars Täuber
Hello Ted,

thanks for sharing this knowledge with us!
Maybe this should be put on the web page.

Have a nice day
Lars



Mon, 23 Jan 2017 02:04:58 -0800
Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]> ==> [hidden email] :

> Hi Fergus,
>
> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>
> 1) sizing and runtime.  APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>
> Regular
> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> Online
>
> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
> minutes.  Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
> way.   That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
> and quite small batteries.
>
> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
> packs added.
>
> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
> main power and inverter power.
>
> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.
>
> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.   You must add probes
> to get them to measure external temp.  Back-UPS generally don't display
> any temps.
>
> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
> and allowed to completely charge.   The second is about halfway through
> the battery's lifespan.   It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
> lifespan)
>
> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
> shortens it's lifespan.   I think you probably can get about 10
> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk.  And, only when it's new.
> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
> will kill it.
>
> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>
> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops.  Since
> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.  Basically, if the
> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
>
> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
>   For that you need a generator.
>
> Ted
>
> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
> >
> > I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
> >
> > I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
> > -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> > -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
> > -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
> >         -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> > -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
> > -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
> >
> > Thanks in advance Fergus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > _______________________________________________
> > Apcupsd-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
> >  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Apcupsd-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>


--
                            Informationstechnologie
Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften
Jägerstraße 22-23                      10117 Berlin
Tel.: +49 30 20370-352           http://www.bbaw.de

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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

ferg22
In reply to this post by Ted Mittelstaedt-5
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.


On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> Hi Fergus,
>
> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>
> 1) sizing and runtime.  APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>
> Regular
> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> Online
>
> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
> minutes.  Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
> way.   That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
> and quite small batteries.
>
> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
> packs added.
>
> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
> main power and inverter power.
> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.
XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to replace the
batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need replaced in
that they wont keep the server going for more than a few seconds. Replaced
batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime or capacity.

The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can easily keep
it going for about an hour.

I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life models will
be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to the APC model?

> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.   You must add probes
> to get them to measure external temp.  Back-UPS generally don't display
> any temps.
Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very useful
proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server. Wouldn't
do without it.

> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
> and allowed to completely charge.   The second is about halfway through
> the battery's lifespan.   It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
> lifespan)
Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I have NEVER
successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery. Hence the real
reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with calibration that
works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the years.

> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
> shortens it's lifespan.  I think you probably can get about 10
> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk.  And, only when it's new.
> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
> will kill it.
Ok, this is news to me.  I see info on the web suggesting that Yuasa NP?
batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading the info.
However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they only got
50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to discharge
to 80%. But given calibration fails...

> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)

> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops.  Since
> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.  Basically, if the
> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts we see.
However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most cases, hence
my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That normally
see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than an hour
(we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server can
be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour we see
it is generally reliable.  However I do configure the WAKEUP and RETURNCHARGE
values which I thought provided some protection against "false starts".

> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
>  For that you need a generator.
An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and killpower.

> Ted
>
> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>>
>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
>>
>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>>         -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>>
>> Thanks in advance Fergus



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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Ted Mittelstaedt-5
Hi Fergus,

You need an XL with an external battery pack.  If you contact APC
technical support and ask a presales question they will tell you the
same thing.  there's no difference in types of batteries the XP units
just have more batteries that's all.

SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't work.  The
components in their battery charger have drifted to the point that the
battery charger overcharges the battery.  That shortens the lifespan
quite a bit  Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
probably Panasonic or Trojan.  They are flipping expensive though.

There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell regardless of
what the manufacturer says.  You might experiment with AGM batteries.
That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
they make AGMs in the form factor you need.  But ANY lead acid battery
even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor will
be killed by drawing down to flat.

Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.  You
must use High Rate gel cells   They generally have an HR as part of
their part number.  APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I have
seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC label back
and read the battery specs)  I suspect this is a little trick of APC's
to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they last.

Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:

1) kept cool
2) low drawdown currents
3) don't draw past 20% remaining
4) not fast-recharged
5) Not undercharged
6) not overcharged
7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge

They are really fragile batteries.  Unlike wet cell lead-acid batteries
which are much tougher.

I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and their
UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
in their UPSes.  That's another reason why the factory loaded batteries
last the longest.  It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4 years
later that is a match.

When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the battery
terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to the
battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage.  In my opinion
this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.


Ted

PS  all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.


On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>
>
> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> Hi Fergus,
>>
>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>>
>> 1) sizing and runtime.  APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>>
>> Regular
>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>> Online
>>
>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
>> minutes.  Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
>> way.   That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
>> and quite small batteries.
>>
>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
>> packs added.
>>
>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
>> main power and inverter power.
>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.
> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to replace the
> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need replaced in
> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few seconds. Replaced
> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime or capacity.
>
> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can easily keep
> it going for about an hour.
>
> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life models will
> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to the APC model?
>
>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.   You must add probes
>> to get them to measure external temp.  Back-UPS generally don't display
>> any temps.
> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very useful
> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server. Wouldn't
> do without it.
>
>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
>> and allowed to completely charge.   The second is about halfway through
>> the battery's lifespan.   It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
>> lifespan)
> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I have NEVER
> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery. Hence the real
> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with calibration that
> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the years.
>
>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
>> shortens it's lifespan.  I think you probably can get about 10
>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk.  And, only when it's new.
>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
>> will kill it.
> Ok, this is news to me.  I see info on the web suggesting that Yuasa NP?
> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading the info.
> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they only got
> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to discharge
> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>
>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>
>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops.  Since
>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.  Basically, if the
>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts we see.
> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most cases, hence
> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That normally
> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than an hour
> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server can
> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour we see
> it is generally reliable.  However I do configure the WAKEUP and RETURNCHARGE
> values which I thought provided some protection against "false starts".
>
>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
>>  For that you need a generator.
> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and killpower.
>
>> Ted
>>
>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>>>
>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
>>>
>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>>>         -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
>
>
>
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Uwe Z.
In reply to this post by ferg22
Hello!

Fergus, in addition to what Ted said a few words from me.

I'm currently using a SUA1500I as well (230V version, black case)
which has to sustain a load between 12% and up to 25% (everything
powered on). My batteries usually last around 5 years, but we rarely
have power outages here and most of the equipment on the UPS shuts
down very quickly to lighten the load on the batteries.

Additionally I checked the charge voltage after each battery exchange
as Ted said. For the black models there is a way to calibrate the
charging voltage.

Most of the time I use CSB Battery replacements, for one UPS (an Eaton
OEM model) even the longlife version. Usually no issues here.

Like Ted said ambient temp of the battery is one part of battery life.
It shortens heavily when it's over 25°C for a longer period of time in
my experience.

You said you've never successfully calibrated the UPS after
exchanging the battery. Which color does your UPS have (black or
beige) and how did you try to calibrate?

Best regards
Uwe


On Donnerstag, 26. Januar 2017 at 10:38 Fergus wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512

> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.


> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> Hi Fergus,
>>
>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>>
>> 1) sizing and runtime.  APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>>
>> Regular
>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>> Online
>>
>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
>> minutes.  Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
>> way.   That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
>> and quite small batteries.
>>
>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
>> packs added.
>>
>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
>> main power and inverter power.
>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.
> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to replace the
> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need replaced in
> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few seconds. Replaced
> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime or capacity.

> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can easily keep
> it going for about an hour.

> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life models will
> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to the APC model?

>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.   You must add probes
>> to get them to measure external temp.  Back-UPS generally don't display
>> any temps.
> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very useful
> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server. Wouldn't
> do without it.

>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
>> and allowed to completely charge.   The second is about halfway through
>> the battery's lifespan.   It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
>> lifespan)
> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I have NEVER
> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery. Hence the real
> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with calibration that
> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the years.

>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
>> shortens it's lifespan.  I think you probably can get about 10
>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk.  And, only when it's new.
>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
>> will kill it.
> Ok, this is news to me.  I see info on the web suggesting that Yuasa NP?
> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading the info.
> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they only got
> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to discharge
> to 80%. But given calibration fails...

>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)

>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops.  Since
>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.  Basically, if the
>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts we see.
> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most cases, hence
> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That normally
> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than an hour
> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server can
> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour we see
> it is generally reliable.  However I do configure the WAKEUP and RETURNCHARGE
> values which I thought provided some protection against "false starts".

>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
>>  For that you need a generator.
> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and killpower.

>> Ted
>>
>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>>>
>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
>>>
>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
>>>      -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>>>      -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>>>      -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>>>         -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>>>      -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>>>      -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance Fergus



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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

ferg22
In reply to this post by Ted Mittelstaedt-5
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:

        The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)

        Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on

All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
       
        Skip and replace the APC every three years.

I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and  voltage
sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
worse than APC?

Fergus.


On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Fergus,
>
> You need an XL with an external battery pack.  If you contact APC
> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell you the
> same thing.  there's no difference in types of batteries the XP units
> just have more batteries that's all.
>
> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't work.  The
> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point that the
> battery charger overcharges the battery.  That shortens the lifespan
> quite a bit  Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
> probably Panasonic or Trojan.  They are flipping expensive though.
>
> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell regardless of
> what the manufacturer says.  You might experiment with AGM batteries.
> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
> they make AGMs in the form factor you need.  But ANY lead acid battery
> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor will
> be killed by drawing down to flat.
>
> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.  You
> must use High Rate gel cells   They generally have an HR as part of
> their part number.  APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I have
> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC label back
> and read the battery specs)  I suspect this is a little trick of APC's
> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they last.
>
> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
>
> 1) kept cool
> 2) low drawdown currents
> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
> 4) not fast-recharged
> 5) Not undercharged
> 6) not overcharged
> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
>
> They are really fragile batteries.  Unlike wet cell lead-acid batteries
> which are much tougher.
>
> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and their
> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
> in their UPSes.  That's another reason why the factory loaded batteries
> last the longest.  It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4 years
> later that is a match.
>
> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the battery
> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to the
> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage.  In my opinion
> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
>
>
> Ted
>
> PS  all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
>
>
> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>>
>>
>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>> Hi Fergus,
>>>
>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>>>
>>> 1) sizing and runtime.  APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>>>
>>> Regular
>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>>> Online
>>>
>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
>>> minutes.  Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
>>> way.   That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
>>> and quite small batteries.
>>>
>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
>>> packs added.
>>>
>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
>>> main power and inverter power.
>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.
>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to replace the
>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need replaced in
>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few seconds. Replaced
>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime or capacity.
>>
>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can easily keep
>> it going for about an hour.
>>
>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life models will
>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to the APC model?
>>
>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.   You must add probes
>>> to get them to measure external temp.  Back-UPS generally don't display
>>> any temps.
>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very useful
>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server. Wouldn't
>> do without it.
>>
>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
>>> and allowed to completely charge.   The second is about halfway through
>>> the battery's lifespan.   It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
>>> lifespan)
>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I have NEVER
>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery. Hence the real
>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with calibration that
>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the years.
>>
>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
>>> shortens it's lifespan.  I think you probably can get about 10
>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk.  And, only when it's new.
>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
>>> will kill it.
>> Ok, this is news to me.  I see info on the web suggesting that Yuasa NP?
>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading the info.
>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they only got
>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to discharge
>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>>
>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>>
>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops.  Since
>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.  Basically, if the
>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts we see.
>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most cases, hence
>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That normally
>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than an hour
>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server can
>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour we see
>> it is generally reliable.  However I do configure the WAKEUP and RETURNCHARGE
>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false starts".
>>
>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
>>> For that you need a generator.
>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and killpower.
>>
>>> Ted
>>>
>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>>>>
>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>>>>        -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus

======================================================================
Fergus McMenemie                        Email:[hidden email]
Software Limited,                       Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe,  Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England              Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)              
======================================================================
Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl          Analyst Programmer



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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Ted Mittelstaedt-5


On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
>
> The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
>

NOT regularly.   A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.

> Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
>

"recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
close as possible the amount of time left on battery.  It does not
mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this different
kind of battery I want to use"

> All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
>
> Skip and replace the APC every three years.
>

Not exactly.  If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with, that
are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long as it
did when new.

It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM.  Whether
they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
heck, knows.

> I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
> modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and  voltage
> sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
> support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
> worse than APC?
>

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
think.  A UPS does not create power.  It is also a horrendously
inefficient way of storing power.

Look at it this way.  You have a network device like a router.  It has
a motherboard that runs on 5 volts.  You have a solar cell array that
on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.

You want to power the network device.

Well you can do it 2 ways.  The first way is to use the solar array
to charge a battery.  Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
that converts it to 120v ac.   That is fed into the router's power
supply which converts it back down to 5v

This is essentially how a UPS operates.

The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of these
chips:

http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323

This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
above 90%   You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board.  No battery needed.

We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only.  Converting wall AC power
to DC then back to AC then back to DC.  Wall power that might have even
been created with a solar array.  But it's INEFFICIENT.

With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency.  A
UPS is the ultimate in convenience.  So you give up efficiency in power
savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
since you don't want to screw around with maintaining  bank of
wet cells.

This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
48v power.  Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
the 48v power.

Now here's my advice.   You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini.  Well,
what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't?  Just scrap the
Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a UPS at
all.

Ted

> Fergus.
>
>
> On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Fergus,
>>
>> You need an XL with an external battery pack.  If you contact APC
>> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell you the
>> same thing.  there's no difference in types of batteries the XP units
>> just have more batteries that's all.
>>
>> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't work.  The
>> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point that the
>> battery charger overcharges the battery.  That shortens the lifespan
>> quite a bit  Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
>> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
>> probably Panasonic or Trojan.  They are flipping expensive though.
>>
>> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell regardless of
>> what the manufacturer says.  You might experiment with AGM batteries.
>> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
>> they make AGMs in the form factor you need.  But ANY lead acid battery
>> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor will
>> be killed by drawing down to flat.
>>
>> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.  You
>> must use High Rate gel cells   They generally have an HR as part of
>> their part number.  APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I have
>> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC label back
>> and read the battery specs)  I suspect this is a little trick of APC's
>> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they last.
>>
>> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
>>
>> 1) kept cool
>> 2) low drawdown currents
>> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
>> 4) not fast-recharged
>> 5) Not undercharged
>> 6) not overcharged
>> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
>>
>> They are really fragile batteries.  Unlike wet cell lead-acid batteries
>> which are much tougher.
>>
>> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and their
>> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
>> in their UPSes.  That's another reason why the factory loaded batteries
>> last the longest.  It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4 years
>> later that is a match.
>>
>> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the battery
>> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to the
>> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage.  In my opinion
>> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
>>
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> PS  all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
>>
>>
>> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>
>>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
>>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>>> Hi Fergus,
>>>>
>>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>>>>
>>>> 1) sizing and runtime.  APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>>>>
>>>> Regular
>>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>>>> Online
>>>>
>>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
>>>> minutes.  Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
>>>> way.   That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
>>>> and quite small batteries.
>>>>
>>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
>>>> packs added.
>>>>
>>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
>>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
>>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
>>>> main power and inverter power.
>>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.
>>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to replace the
>>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need replaced in
>>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few seconds. Replaced
>>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime or capacity.
>>>
>>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can easily keep
>>> it going for about an hour.
>>>
>>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life models will
>>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to the APC model?
>>>
>>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.   You must add probes
>>>> to get them to measure external temp.  Back-UPS generally don't display
>>>> any temps.
>>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very useful
>>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server. Wouldn't
>>> do without it.
>>>
>>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
>>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
>>>> and allowed to completely charge.   The second is about halfway through
>>>> the battery's lifespan.   It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
>>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
>>>> lifespan)
>>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I have NEVER
>>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery. Hence the real
>>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with calibration that
>>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the years.
>>>
>>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
>>>> shortens it's lifespan.  I think you probably can get about 10
>>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk.  And, only when it's new.
>>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
>>>> will kill it.
>>> Ok, this is news to me.  I see info on the web suggesting that Yuasa NP?
>>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading the info.
>>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they only got
>>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to discharge
>>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>>>
>>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>>>
>>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
>>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
>>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
>>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops.  Since
>>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
>>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.  Basically, if the
>>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
>>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
>>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts we see.
>>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most cases, hence
>>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That normally
>>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than an hour
>>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server can
>>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour we see
>>> it is generally reliable.  However I do configure the WAKEUP and RETURNCHARGE
>>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false starts".
>>>
>>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
>>>> For that you need a generator.
>>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and killpower.
>>>
>>>> Ted
>>>>
>>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
>>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>>>>>        -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
>
> ======================================================================
> Fergus McMenemie                        Email:[hidden email]
> Software Limited,                       Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
> Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe,  Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
> Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England              Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> ======================================================================
> Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl          Analyst Programmer
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Pavel Boček

It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5 years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the unit, the worse components you find inside.


However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than buy'n'pray it will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I do not however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some "warranty engineering" in mind.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?




On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
>
> The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
>

NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.

> Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
>

"recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this different
kind of battery I want to use"

> All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
>
> Skip and replace the APC every three years.
>

Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with, that
are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long as it
did when new.

It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
heck, knows.

> I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
> modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
> sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
> support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
> worse than APC?
>

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
inefficient way of storing power.

Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.

You want to power the network device.

Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
supply which converts it back down to 5v

This is essentially how a UPS operates.

The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of these
chips:

http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323

This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery needed.

We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.

With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
wet cells.

This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
the 48v power.

Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just scrap the
Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a UPS at
all.

Ted

> Fergus.
>
>
> On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Fergus,
>>
>> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
>> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell you the
>> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP units
>> just have more batteries that's all.
>>
>> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't work. The
>> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point that the
>> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
>> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
>> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
>> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
>>
>> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell regardless of
>> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM batteries.
>> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
>> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid battery
>> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor will
>> be killed by drawing down to flat.
>>
>> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells. You
>> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
>> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I have
>> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC label back
>> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of APC's
>> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they last.
>>
>> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
>>
>> 1) kept cool
>> 2) low drawdown currents
>> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
>> 4) not fast-recharged
>> 5) Not undercharged
>> 6) not overcharged
>> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
>>
>> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid batteries
>> which are much tougher.
>>
>> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and their
>> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
>> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded batteries
>> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4 years
>> later that is a match.
>>
>> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the battery
>> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to the
>> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my opinion
>> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
>>
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
>>
>>
>> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>
>>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
>>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>>> Hi Fergus,
>>>>
>>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>>>>
>>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>>>>
>>>> Regular
>>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>>>> Online
>>>>
>>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of less than 10
>>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are this
>>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA ratings
>>>> and quite small batteries.
>>>>
>>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external battery
>>>> packs added.
>>>>
>>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously these are
>>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
>>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching between the
>>>> main power and inverter power.
>>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your intended use is.
>>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to replace the
>>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need replaced in
>>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few seconds. Replaced
>>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime or capacity.
>>>
>>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can easily keep
>>> it going for about an hour.
>>>
>>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life models will
>>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to the APC model?
>>>
>>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add probes
>>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't display
>>>> any temps.
>>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very useful
>>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server. Wouldn't
>>> do without it.
>>>
>>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery lifetime.
>>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been installed
>>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway through
>>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly and if
>>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by 2/3 of it's
>>>> lifespan)
>>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I have NEVER
>>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery. Hence the real
>>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with calibration that
>>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the years.
>>>
>>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it severely
>>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
>>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when it's new.
>>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost always
>>>> will kill it.
>>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that Yuasa NP?
>>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading the info.
>>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they only got
>>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to discharge
>>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>>>
>>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>>>
>>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main power
>>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in probably 50%
>>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be about 2-3
>>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary drops. Since
>>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to the load
>>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically, if the
>>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure it to
>>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
>>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts we see.
>>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most cases, hence
>>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That normally
>>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than an hour
>>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server can
>>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour we see
>>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and RETURNCHARGE
>>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false starts".
>>>
>>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods of time.
>>>> For that you need a generator.
>>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and killpower.
>>>
>>>> Ted
>>>>
>>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to misbehave when it really matters.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use with apcupsd.
>>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
>
> ======================================================================
> Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
> Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
> Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
> Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> ======================================================================
> Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
>
>
>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Apcupsd-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>

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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Ted Mittelstaedt-5
I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.

Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years.  They
used to come in steel boxes.  Then plastic.  And my failure rate on
the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
SmartUPSes.

But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
SMartUPSes.  I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.

And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.

With batteries you get what you pay for.  The top-of-the-line Panasonic
lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage.  Then
they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.

Ted

On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:

> It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
> average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
> years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
> years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
> unit, the worse components you find inside.
>
>
> However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
> only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
> somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than buy'n'pray it
> will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I do not
> however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
> ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
> upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some "warranty
> engineering" in mind.
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
>
>
>     On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
>     > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>     > Hash: SHA512
>     >
>     > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
>     >
>     > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
>     >
>
>     NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
>
>     > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
>     >
>
>     "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
>     close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
>     mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
>     different
>     kind of battery I want to use"
>
>     > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
>     >
>     > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
>     >
>
>     Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
>     years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with, that
>     are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long
>     as it
>     did when new.
>
>     It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
>     Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
>     they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
>     heck, knows.
>
>     > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
>     > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
>     > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
>     > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
>     > worse than APC?
>     >
>
>     There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
>     think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
>     inefficient way of storing power.
>
>     Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
>     a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
>     on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
>
>     You want to power the network device.
>
>     Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
>     to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
>     that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
>     supply which converts it back down to 5v
>
>     This is essentially how a UPS operates.
>
>     The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of these
>     chips:
>
>     http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
>
>
>     This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
>     above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
>     supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery needed.
>
>     We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
>     to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
>     been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
>
>     With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
>     UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
>     savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
>     important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
>     since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
>     wet cells.
>
>     This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
>     48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
>     inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
>     life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
>     they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
>     the 48v power.
>
>     Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
>     what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just scrap the
>     Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a UPS at
>     all.
>
>     Ted
>
>     > Fergus.
>     >
>     >
>     > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
>     wrote:
>     >> Hi Fergus,
>     >>
>     >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
>     >> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell you the
>     >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP units
>     >> just have more batteries that's all.
>     >>
>     >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't work. The
>     >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point
>     that the
>     >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
>     >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
>     >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
>     >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
>     >>
>     >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
>     regardless of
>     >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM batteries.
>     >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
>     >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
>     battery
>     >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
>     will
>     >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
>     >>
>     >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
>     You
>     >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
>     >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
>     have
>     >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
>     label back
>     >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
>     APC's
>     >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
>     last.
>     >>
>     >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
>     >>
>     >> 1) kept cool
>     >> 2) low drawdown currents
>     >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
>     >> 4) not fast-recharged
>     >> 5) Not undercharged
>     >> 6) not overcharged
>     >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
>     >>
>     >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
>     batteries
>     >> which are much tougher.
>     >>
>     >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
>     their
>     >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
>     >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
>     batteries
>     >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
>     years
>     >> later that is a match.
>     >>
>     >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
>     battery
>     >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
>     the
>     >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
>     opinion
>     >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> Ted
>     >>
>     >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>     >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>     >>> Hash: SHA512
>     >>>
>     >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
>     >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>     >>>> Hi Fergus,
>     >>>>
>     >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>     >>>>
>     >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>     >>>>
>     >>>> Regular
>     >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>     >>>> Online
>     >>>>
>     >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
>     less than 10
>     >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
>     this
>     >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
>     ratings
>     >>>> and quite small batteries.
>     >>>>
>     >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
>     battery
>     >>>> packs added.
>     >>>>
>     >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
>     these are
>     >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
>     >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
>     between the
>     >>>> main power and inverter power.
>     >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
>     intended use is.
>     >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
>     replace the
>     >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
>     replaced in
>     >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
>     seconds. Replaced
>     >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
>     or capacity.
>     >>>
>     >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
>     easily keep
>     >>> it going for about an hour.
>     >>>
>     >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
>     models will
>     >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
>     the APC model?
>     >>>
>     >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
>     probes
>     >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
>     display
>     >>>> any temps.
>     >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
>     useful
>     >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
>     Wouldn't
>     >>> do without it.
>     >>>
>     >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
>     lifetime.
>     >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
>     installed
>     >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
>     through
>     >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
>     and if
>     >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
>     2/3 of it's
>     >>>> lifespan)
>     >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
>     have NEVER
>     >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
>     Hence the real
>     >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
>     calibration that
>     >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
>     years.
>     >>>
>     >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
>     severely
>     >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
>     >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
>     it's new.
>     >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
>     always
>     >>>> will kill it.
>     >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
>     Yuasa NP?
>     >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
>     the info.
>     >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
>     only got
>     >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
>     discharge
>     >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>     >>>
>     >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>     >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>     >>>
>     >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
>     power
>     >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
>     probably 50%
>     >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
>     about 2-3
>     >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
>     drops. Since
>     >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
>     the load
>     >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
>     if the
>     >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
>     it to
>     >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
>     >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
>     we see.
>     >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
>     cases, hence
>     >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
>     normally
>     >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
>     an hour
>     >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
>     can
>     >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
>     we see
>     >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
>     RETURNCHARGE
>     >>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false
>     starts".
>     >>>
>     >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
>     of time.
>     >>>> For that you need a generator.
>     >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
>     killpower.
>     >>>
>     >>>> Ted
>     >>>>
>     >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>     >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS
>     and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years
>     with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
>     batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
>     misbehave when it really matters.
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use
>     with apcupsd.
>     >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>     >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>     >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>     >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>     >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>     >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
>     >
>     >
>     ======================================================================
>     > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
>     > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
>     > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
>     > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
>     >
>     ======================================================================
>     > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
>     >
>     >
>     >
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>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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>     Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Pavel Boček

1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider) generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA models), they have much shorter average lifespan.


Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always around 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process removes the source of that so I have not noticed.


As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all. Absoluje majority of SLA is AGM.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?


I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.

Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years. They
used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure rate on
the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
SmartUPSes.

But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.

And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.

With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line Panasonic
lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage. Then
they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.

Ted

On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:

> It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
> average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
> years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
> years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
> unit, the worse components you find inside.
>
>
> However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
> only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
> somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than buy'n'pray it
> will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I do not
> however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
> ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
> upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some "warranty
> engineering" in mind.
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
>
>
> On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
> >
> > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
> >
>
> NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
>
> > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
> >
>
> "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
> close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
> mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
> different
> kind of battery I want to use"
>
> > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
> >
> > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
> >
>
> Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
> years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with, that
> are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long
> as it
> did when new.
>
> It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
> Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
> they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
> heck, knows.
>
> > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
> > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
> > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
> > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
> > worse than APC?
> >
>
> There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
> think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
> inefficient way of storing power.
>
> Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
> a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
> on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
>
> You want to power the network device.
>
> Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
> to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
> that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
> supply which converts it back down to 5v
>
> This is essentially how a UPS operates.
>
> The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of these
> chips:
>
> http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
>
>
> This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
> above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
> supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery needed.
>
> We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
> to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
> been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
>
> With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
> UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
> savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
> important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
> since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
> wet cells.
>
> This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
> 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
> inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
> life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
> they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
> the 48v power.
>
> Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
> what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just scrap the
> Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a UPS at
> all.
>
> Ted
>
> > Fergus.
> >
> >
> > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> Hi Fergus,
> >>
> >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
> >> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell you the
> >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP units
> >> just have more batteries that's all.
> >>
> >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't work. The
> >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point
> that the
> >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
> >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
> >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
> >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
> >>
> >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
> regardless of
> >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM batteries.
> >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
> >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
> battery
> >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
> will
> >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
> >>
> >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
> You
> >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
> >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
> have
> >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
> label back
> >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
> APC's
> >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
> last.
> >>
> >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
> >>
> >> 1) kept cool
> >> 2) low drawdown currents
> >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
> >> 4) not fast-recharged
> >> 5) Not undercharged
> >> 6) not overcharged
> >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
> >>
> >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
> batteries
> >> which are much tougher.
> >>
> >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
> their
> >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
> >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
> batteries
> >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
> years
> >> later that is a match.
> >>
> >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
> battery
> >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
> the
> >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
> opinion
> >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ted
> >>
> >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>> Hash: SHA512
> >>>
> >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
> >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >>>> Hi Fergus,
> >>>>
> >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
> >>>>
> >>>> Regular
> >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> >>>> Online
> >>>>
> >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
> less than 10
> >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
> this
> >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
> ratings
> >>>> and quite small batteries.
> >>>>
> >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
> battery
> >>>> packs added.
> >>>>
> >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
> these are
> >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
> >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
> between the
> >>>> main power and inverter power.
> >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
> intended use is.
> >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
> replace the
> >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
> replaced in
> >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
> seconds. Replaced
> >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
> or capacity.
> >>>
> >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
> easily keep
> >>> it going for about an hour.
> >>>
> >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
> models will
> >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
> the APC model?
> >>>
> >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
> probes
> >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
> display
> >>>> any temps.
> >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
> useful
> >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
> Wouldn't
> >>> do without it.
> >>>
> >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
> lifetime.
> >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
> installed
> >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
> through
> >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
> and if
> >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
> 2/3 of it's
> >>>> lifespan)
> >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
> have NEVER
> >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
> Hence the real
> >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
> calibration that
> >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
> years.
> >>>
> >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
> severely
> >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
> >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
> it's new.
> >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
> always
> >>>> will kill it.
> >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
> Yuasa NP?
> >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
> the info.
> >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
> only got
> >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
> discharge
> >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
> >>>
> >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
> >>>
> >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
> power
> >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
> probably 50%
> >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
> about 2-3
> >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
> drops. Since
> >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
> the load
> >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
> if the
> >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
> it to
> >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
> >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
> we see.
> >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
> cases, hence
> >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
> normally
> >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
> an hour
> >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
> can
> >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
> we see
> >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
> RETURNCHARGE
> >>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false
> starts".
> >>>
> >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
> of time.
> >>>> For that you need a generator.
> >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
> killpower.
> >>>
> >>>> Ted
> >>>>
> >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS
> and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years
> with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
> batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
> misbehave when it really matters.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use
> with apcupsd.
> >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
> >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
> >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
> >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
> >
> >
> ======================================================================
> > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
> > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
> > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
> > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> >
> ======================================================================
> > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
> >
> >
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
> >
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> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Ted Mittelstaedt-5


On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider)
> generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA models), they
> have much shorter average lifespan.
>

That has not been my experience.  And in any case a UPS manufactured in
2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in terms of
lifespan.  If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going then it has
lasted 19 years.  If the
UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1 year.
Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan.  Q.E.D.

You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current generation of
UPSes until another decade or so in the future.  All you can do now
is compare failure rates.  And my experience is that the failure rates
are comparable.

Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are overcharging
batteries.

>
> Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always around
> 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process removes the
> source of that so I have not noticed.
>

You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries when you
remove them when they have worn out, and how long the batteries last.

>
> As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all. Absoluje majority
> of SLA is AGM.
>

Wrong.  Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they are more
expensive.  Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
expensive item.  Because AGM is new it's touted as being better and so
when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM.  This is
compounded by the battery retailers who stock the garbage-grade cheapest
lead-acid gel cells they can find.  So the consumer walks into
the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years maximum
then they go back to the battery store and complain and the battery
retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.

But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are still buying
gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper than the
good quality AGM.  That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
you will find gel cells not AGM in them.

Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers flood the market
with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of the average
AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay a premium
for them.

trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM.  We just have a lot
more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad name.

Ted

>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
>     I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.
>
>     Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years. They
>     used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure rate on
>     the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
>     SmartUPSes.
>
>     But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
>     SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.
>
>     And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
>     has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
>     It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
>     down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
>
>     With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line Panasonic
>     lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
>     cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
>     absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage. Then
>     they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
>
>     Ted
>
>     On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
>     > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
>     > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
>     > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
>     > years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
>     > unit, the worse components you find inside.
>     >
>     >
>     > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
>     > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
>     > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
>     buy'n'pray it
>     > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I
>     do not
>     > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
>     > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
>     > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some
>     "warranty
>     > engineering" in mind.
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>     >
>     > Pavel Boček
>     > Jabber: [hidden email]
>     > +420 739 190 151
>     > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>     aj./capacitors
>     > and more)
>     > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>     >
>     > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
>     > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
>     > Komu: [hidden email]
>     > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
>     > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
>     > apc to buy?
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
>     > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>     > > Hash: SHA512
>     > >
>     > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
>     > >
>     > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
>     > >
>     >
>     > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
>     >
>     > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
>     > >
>     >
>     > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
>     > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
>     > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
>     > different
>     > kind of battery I want to use"
>     >
>     > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
>     > >
>     > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
>     > >
>     >
>     > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
>     > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with,
>     that
>     > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long
>     > as it
>     > did when new.
>     >
>     > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
>     > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
>     > they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
>     > heck, knows.
>     >
>     > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
>     > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
>     > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
>     > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
>     > > worse than APC?
>     > >
>     >
>     > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
>     > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
>     > inefficient way of storing power.
>     >
>     > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
>     > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
>     > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
>     >
>     > You want to power the network device.
>     >
>     > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
>     > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
>     > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
>     > supply which converts it back down to 5v
>     >
>     > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
>     >
>     > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of
>     these
>     > chips:
>     >
>     >
>     http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
>     >
>     >
>     > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
>     > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
>     > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery
>     needed.
>     >
>     > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
>     > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
>     > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
>     >
>     > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
>     > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
>     > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
>     > important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
>     > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
>     > wet cells.
>     >
>     > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
>     > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
>     > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
>     > life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
>     > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
>     > the 48v power.
>     >
>     > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
>     > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just
>     scrap the
>     > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a
>     UPS at
>     > all.
>     >
>     > Ted
>     >
>     > > Fergus.
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
>     > wrote:
>     > >> Hi Fergus,
>     > >>
>     > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
>     > >> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell
>     you the
>     > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP
>     units
>     > >> just have more batteries that's all.
>     > >>
>     > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't
>     work. The
>     > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point
>     > that the
>     > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
>     > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
>     > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
>     > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
>     > >>
>     > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
>     > regardless of
>     > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
>     batteries.
>     > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
>     > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
>     > battery
>     > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
>     > will
>     > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
>     > >>
>     > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
>     > You
>     > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
>     > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
>     > have
>     > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
>     > label back
>     > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
>     > APC's
>     > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
>     > last.
>     > >>
>     > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
>     > >>
>     > >> 1) kept cool
>     > >> 2) low drawdown currents
>     > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
>     > >> 4) not fast-recharged
>     > >> 5) Not undercharged
>     > >> 6) not overcharged
>     > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
>     > >>
>     > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
>     > batteries
>     > >> which are much tougher.
>     > >>
>     > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
>     > their
>     > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
>     > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
>     > batteries
>     > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
>     > years
>     > >> later that is a match.
>     > >>
>     > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
>     > battery
>     > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
>     > the
>     > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
>     > opinion
>     > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
>     > >>
>     > >>
>     > >> Ted
>     > >>
>     > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
>     > >>
>     > >>
>     > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>     > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>     > >>> Hash: SHA512
>     > >>>
>     > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
>     > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>     > >>>
>     > >>>
>     > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>     > >>>> Hi Fergus,
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> Regular
>     > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>     > >>>> Online
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
>     > less than 10
>     > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
>     > this
>     > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
>     > ratings
>     > >>>> and quite small batteries.
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
>     > battery
>     > >>>> packs added.
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
>     > these are
>     > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
>     > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
>     > between the
>     > >>>> main power and inverter power.
>     > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
>     > intended use is.
>     > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
>     > replace the
>     > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
>     > replaced in
>     > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
>     > seconds. Replaced
>     > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
>     > or capacity.
>     > >>>
>     > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
>     > easily keep
>     > >>> it going for about an hour.
>     > >>>
>     > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
>     > models will
>     > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
>     > the APC model?
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
>     > probes
>     > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
>     > display
>     > >>>> any temps.
>     > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
>     > useful
>     > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
>     > Wouldn't
>     > >>> do without it.
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
>     > lifetime.
>     > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
>     > installed
>     > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
>     > through
>     > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
>     > and if
>     > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
>     > 2/3 of it's
>     > >>>> lifespan)
>     > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
>     > have NEVER
>     > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
>     > Hence the real
>     > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
>     > calibration that
>     > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
>     > years.
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
>     > severely
>     > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
>     > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
>     > it's new.
>     > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
>     > always
>     > >>>> will kill it.
>     > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
>     > Yuasa NP?
>     > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
>     > the info.
>     > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
>     > only got
>     > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
>     > discharge
>     > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>     > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
>     > power
>     > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
>     > probably 50%
>     > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
>     > about 2-3
>     > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
>     > drops. Since
>     > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
>     > the load
>     > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
>     > if the
>     > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
>     > it to
>     > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
>     > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
>     > we see.
>     > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
>     > cases, hence
>     > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
>     > normally
>     > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
>     > an hour
>     > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
>     > can
>     > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
>     > we see
>     > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
>     > RETURNCHARGE
>     > >>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false
>     > starts".
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
>     > of time.
>     > >>>> For that you need a generator.
>     > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
>     > killpower.
>     > >>>
>     > >>>> Ted
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>     > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS
>     > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years
>     > with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
>     > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
>     > misbehave when it really matters.
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use
>     > with apcupsd.
>     > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>     > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
>     > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>     > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>     > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
>     > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
>     > >
>     > >
>     > ======================================================================
>     > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
>     > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
>     > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
>     > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
>     > >
>     > ======================================================================
>     > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
>     > >
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>     > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>     > >
>     > >
>     >
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Pavel Boček

I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going bad about now.


Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.


So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you don't see it than there is no point in further discussion.


Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired them) so I know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on, continue making statements with no knowledge of the electronics…


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?




On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider)
> generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA models), they
> have much shorter average lifespan.
>

That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS manufactured in
2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in terms of
lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going then it has
lasted 19 years. If the
UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1 year.
Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.

You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current generation of
UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can do now
is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the failure rates
are comparable.

Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are overcharging
batteries.

>
> Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always around
> 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process removes the
> source of that so I have not noticed.
>

You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries when you
remove them when they have worn out, and how long the batteries last.

>
> As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all. Absoluje majority
> of SLA is AGM.
>

Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they are more
expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being better and so
when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
compounded by the battery retailers who stock the garbage-grade cheapest
lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years maximum
then they go back to the battery store and complain and the battery
retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.

But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are still buying
gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper than the
good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
you will find gel cells not AGM in them.

Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers flood the market
with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of the average
AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay a premium
for them.

trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad name.

Ted

>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
> I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.
>
> Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years. They
> used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure rate on
> the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
> SmartUPSes.
>
> But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
> SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.
>
> And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
> has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
> It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
> down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
>
> With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line Panasonic
> lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
> cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
> absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage. Then
> they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
>
> Ted
>
> On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
> > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
> > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
> > years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
> > unit, the worse components you find inside.
> >
> >
> > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
> > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
> > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
> buy'n'pray it
> > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I
> do not
> > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
> > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
> > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some
> "warranty
> > engineering" in mind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
> >
> > Pavel Boček
> > Jabber: [hidden email]
> > +420 739 190 151
> > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> aj./capacitors
> > and more)
> > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
> >
> > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > Komu: [hidden email]
> > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
> > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> > apc to buy?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA512
> > >
> > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
> > >
> > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
> > >
> >
> > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
> >
> > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
> > >
> >
> > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
> > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
> > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
> > different
> > kind of battery I want to use"
> >
> > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
> > >
> > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
> > >
> >
> > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
> > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with,
> that
> > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long
> > as it
> > did when new.
> >
> > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
> > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
> > they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
> > heck, knows.
> >
> > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
> > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
> > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
> > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
> > > worse than APC?
> > >
> >
> > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
> > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
> > inefficient way of storing power.
> >
> > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
> > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
> > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
> >
> > You want to power the network device.
> >
> > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
> > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
> > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
> > supply which converts it back down to 5v
> >
> > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
> >
> > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of
> these
> > chips:
> >
> >
> http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
> >
> >
> > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
> > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
> > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery
> needed.
> >
> > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
> > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
> > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
> >
> > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
> > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
> > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
> > important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
> > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
> > wet cells.
> >
> > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
> > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
> > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
> > life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
> > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
> > the 48v power.
> >
> > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
> > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just
> scrap the
> > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a
> UPS at
> > all.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > > Fergus.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> Hi Fergus,
> > >>
> > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
> > >> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell
> you the
> > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP
> units
> > >> just have more batteries that's all.
> > >>
> > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't
> work. The
> > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point
> > that the
> > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
> > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
> > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
> > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
> > >>
> > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
> > regardless of
> > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
> batteries.
> > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
> > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
> > battery
> > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
> > will
> > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
> > >>
> > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
> > You
> > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
> > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
> > have
> > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
> > label back
> > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
> > APC's
> > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
> > last.
> > >>
> > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
> > >>
> > >> 1) kept cool
> > >> 2) low drawdown currents
> > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
> > >> 4) not fast-recharged
> > >> 5) Not undercharged
> > >> 6) not overcharged
> > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
> > >>
> > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
> > batteries
> > >> which are much tougher.
> > >>
> > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
> > their
> > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
> > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
> > batteries
> > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
> > years
> > >> later that is a match.
> > >>
> > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
> > battery
> > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
> > the
> > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
> > opinion
> > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ted
> > >>
> > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >>> Hash: SHA512
> > >>>
> > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
> > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > >>>> Hi Fergus,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regular
> > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> > >>>> Online
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
> > less than 10
> > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
> > this
> > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
> > ratings
> > >>>> and quite small batteries.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
> > battery
> > >>>> packs added.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
> > these are
> > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
> > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
> > between the
> > >>>> main power and inverter power.
> > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
> > intended use is.
> > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
> > replace the
> > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
> > replaced in
> > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
> > seconds. Replaced
> > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
> > or capacity.
> > >>>
> > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
> > easily keep
> > >>> it going for about an hour.
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
> > models will
> > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
> > the APC model?
> > >>>
> > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
> > probes
> > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
> > display
> > >>>> any temps.
> > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
> > useful
> > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
> > Wouldn't
> > >>> do without it.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
> > lifetime.
> > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
> > installed
> > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
> > through
> > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
> > and if
> > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
> > 2/3 of it's
> > >>>> lifespan)
> > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
> > have NEVER
> > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
> > Hence the real
> > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
> > calibration that
> > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
> > years.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
> > severely
> > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
> > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
> > it's new.
> > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
> > always
> > >>>> will kill it.
> > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
> > Yuasa NP?
> > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
> > the info.
> > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
> > only got
> > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
> > discharge
> > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
> > >>>
> > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
> > >>>
> > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
> > power
> > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
> > probably 50%
> > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
> > about 2-3
> > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
> > drops. Since
> > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
> > the load
> > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
> > if the
> > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
> > it to
> > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
> > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
> > we see.
> > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
> > cases, hence
> > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
> > normally
> > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
> > an hour
> > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
> > can
> > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
> > we see
> > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
> > RETURNCHARGE
> > >>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false
> > starts".
> > >>>
> > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
> > of time.
> > >>>> For that you need a generator.
> > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
> > killpower.
> > >>>
> > >>>> Ted
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS
> > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years
> > with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
> > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
> > misbehave when it really matters.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use
> > with apcupsd.
> > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
> > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
> > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
> > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
> > >
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
> > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
> > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
> > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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> > >
> >
> >
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> >
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

William P.N. Smith
Oh, c'mon guys, be nice. We all know that failure rates and modes are complex and require good statistical inputs and analysis. 

Everyone here is seeing (essentially) anecdotal evidence at best. Unless some of us have seen thousands of failed UPSen and done root cause analysis on them, and not even APC is doing that for their older units. 

IME the cheaper units (BE550, etc), when they need new batteries, have maybe 50% chance of needing a new UPS, as something's gone wrong in the electronics. Only in rare circumstances do I bother to get a new battery and re-qualify the used unit. Higher-end units (SUA1000 class) nearly always work fine with new batteries, again IME. 

Speaking of batteries, how do people like the RefurbUPS replacements?  While I've had issues with their refurbished UPS units, their batteries seem OK. I tend to swap them out after 3-ish years anyway, as they are well under 50% capacity by then. On the other tentacle, they are in a warm environment (up to 95F, 32C in the summer months) so I don't feel they are awful. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]> wrote:

I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going bad about now.


Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.


So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you don't see it than there is no point in further discussion.


Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired them) so I know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on, continue making statements with no knowledge of the electronics…


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?




On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider)
> generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA models), they
> have much shorter average lifespan.
>

That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS manufactured in
2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in terms of
lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going then it has
lasted 19 years. If the
UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1 year.
Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.

You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current generation of
UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can do now
is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the failure rates
are comparable.

Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are overcharging
batteries.

>
> Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always around
> 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process removes the
> source of that so I have not noticed.
>

You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries when you
remove them when they have worn out, and how long the batteries last.

>
> As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all. Absoluje majority
> of SLA is AGM.
>

Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they are more
expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being better and so
when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
compounded by the battery retailers who stock the garbage-grade cheapest
lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years maximum
then they go back to the battery store and complain and the battery
retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.

But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are still buying
gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper than the
good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
you will find gel cells not AGM in them.

Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers flood the market
with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of the average
AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay a premium
for them.

trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad name.

Ted

>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
> I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.
>
> Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years. They
> used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure rate on
> the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
> SmartUPSes.
>
> But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
> SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.
>
> And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
> has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
> It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
> down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
>
> With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line Panasonic
> lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
> cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
> absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage. Then
> they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
>
> Ted
>
> On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
> > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
> > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
> > years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
> > unit, the worse components you find inside.
> >
> >
> > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
> > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
> > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
> buy'n'pray it
> > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I
> do not
> > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
> > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
> > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some
> "warranty
> > engineering" in mind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
> >
> > Pavel Boček
> > Jabber: [hidden email]
> > +420 739 190 151
> > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> aj./capacitors
> > and more)
> > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
> >
> > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > Komu: [hidden email]
> > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
> > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> > apc to buy?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA512
> > >
> > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
> > >
> > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
> > >
> >
> > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
> >
> > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
> > >
> >
> > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
> > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
> > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
> > different
> > kind of battery I want to use"
> >
> > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
> > >
> > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
> > >
> >
> > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
> > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with,
> that
> > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long
> > as it
> > did when new.
> >
> > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
> > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
> > they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
> > heck, knows.
> >
> > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
> > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
> > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
> > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
> > > worse than APC?
> > >
> >
> > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
> > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
> > inefficient way of storing power.
> >
> > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
> > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
> > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
> >
> > You want to power the network device.
> >
> > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
> > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
> > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
> > supply which converts it back down to 5v
> >
> > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
> >
> > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of
> these
> > chips:
> >
> >
> http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
> >
> >
> > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
> > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
> > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery
> needed.
> >
> > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
> > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
> > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
> >
> > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
> > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
> > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
> > important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
> > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
> > wet cells.
> >
> > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
> > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
> > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
> > life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
> > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
> > the 48v power.
> >
> > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
> > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just
> scrap the
> > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a
> UPS at
> > all.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > > Fergus.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> Hi Fergus,
> > >>
> > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
> > >> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell
> you the
> > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP
> units
> > >> just have more batteries that's all.
> > >>
> > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't
> work. The
> > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point
> > that the
> > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
> > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
> > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
> > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
> > >>
> > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
> > regardless of
> > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
> batteries.
> > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
> > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
> > battery
> > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
> > will
> > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
> > >>
> > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
> > You
> > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
> > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
> > have
> > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
> > label back
> > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
> > APC's
> > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
> > last.
> > >>
> > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
> > >>
> > >> 1) kept cool
> > >> 2) low drawdown currents
> > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
> > >> 4) not fast-recharged
> > >> 5) Not undercharged
> > >> 6) not overcharged
> > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
> > >>
> > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
> > batteries
> > >> which are much tougher.
> > >>
> > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
> > their
> > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
> > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
> > batteries
> > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
> > years
> > >> later that is a match.
> > >>
> > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
> > battery
> > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
> > the
> > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
> > opinion
> > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ted
> > >>
> > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >>> Hash: SHA512
> > >>>
> > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
> > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > >>>> Hi Fergus,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regular
> > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> > >>>> Online
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
> > less than 10
> > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
> > this
> > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
> > ratings
> > >>>> and quite small batteries.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
> > battery
> > >>>> packs added.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
> > these are
> > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
> > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
> > between the
> > >>>> main power and inverter power.
> > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
> > intended use is.
> > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
> > replace the
> > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
> > replaced in
> > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
> > seconds. Replaced
> > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
> > or capacity.
> > >>>
> > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
> > easily keep
> > >>> it going for about an hour.
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
> > models will
> > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
> > the APC model?
> > >>>
> > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
> > probes
> > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
> > display
> > >>>> any temps.
> > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
> > useful
> > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
> > Wouldn't
> > >>> do without it.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
> > lifetime.
> > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
> > installed
> > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
> > through
> > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
> > and if
> > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
> > 2/3 of it's
> > >>>> lifespan)
> > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
> > have NEVER
> > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
> > Hence the real
> > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
> > calibration that
> > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
> > years.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
> > severely
> > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
> > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
> > it's new.
> > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
> > always
> > >>>> will kill it.
> > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
> > Yuasa NP?
> > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
> > the info.
> > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
> > only got
> > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
> > discharge
> > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
> > >>>
> > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
> > >>>
> > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
> > power
> > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
> > probably 50%
> > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
> > about 2-3
> > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
> > drops. Since
> > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
> > the load
> > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
> > if the
> > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
> > it to
> > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
> > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
> > we see.
> > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
> > cases, hence
> > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
> > normally
> > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
> > an hour
> > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
> > can
> > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
> > we see
> > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
> > RETURNCHARGE
> > >>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false
> > starts".
> > >>>
> > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
> > of time.
> > >>>> For that you need a generator.
> > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
> > killpower.
> > >>>
> > >>>> Ted
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS
> > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years
> > with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
> > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
> > misbehave when it really matters.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use
> > with apcupsd.
> > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
> > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
> > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
> > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
> > >
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
> > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
> > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
> > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
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> > > =/1sG
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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> > >
> >
> >
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Mihalik Máté
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old. 

2017. márc. 25. du. 3:41 ezt írta ("William Smith" <[hidden email]>):
Oh, c'mon guys, be nice. We all know that failure rates and modes are complex and require good statistical inputs and analysis. 

Everyone here is seeing (essentially) anecdotal evidence at best. Unless some of us have seen thousands of failed UPSen and done root cause analysis on them, and not even APC is doing that for their older units. 

IME the cheaper units (BE550, etc), when they need new batteries, have maybe 50% chance of needing a new UPS, as something's gone wrong in the electronics. Only in rare circumstances do I bother to get a new battery and re-qualify the used unit. Higher-end units (SUA1000 class) nearly always work fine with new batteries, again IME. 

Speaking of batteries, how do people like the RefurbUPS replacements?  While I've had issues with their refurbished UPS units, their batteries seem OK. I tend to swap them out after 3-ish years anyway, as they are well under 50% capacity by then. On the other tentacle, they are in a warm environment (up to 95F, 32C in the summer months) so I don't feel they are awful. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]> wrote:

I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going bad about now.


Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.


So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you don't see it than there is no point in further discussion.


Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired them) so I know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on, continue making statements with no knowledge of the electronics…


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
<a href="tel:+420%20739%20190%20151" value="+420739190151" target="_blank">+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?




On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider)
> generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA models), they
> have much shorter average lifespan.
>

That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS manufactured in
2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in terms of
lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going then it has
lasted 19 years. If the
UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1 year.
Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.

You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current generation of
UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can do now
is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the failure rates
are comparable.

Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are overcharging
batteries.

>
> Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always around
> 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process removes the
> source of that so I have not noticed.
>

You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries when you
remove them when they have worn out, and how long the batteries last.

>
> As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all. Absoluje majority
> of SLA is AGM.
>

Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they are more
expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being better and so
when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
compounded by the battery retailers who stock the garbage-grade cheapest
lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years maximum
then they go back to the battery store and complain and the battery
retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.

But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are still buying
gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper than the
good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
you will find gel cells not AGM in them.

Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers flood the market
with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of the average
AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay a premium
for them.

trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad name.

Ted

>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> <a href="tel:+420%20739%20190%20151" value="+420739190151" target="_blank">+420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
> I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.
>
> Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years. They
> used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure rate on
> the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
> SmartUPSes.
>
> But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
> SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.
>
> And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
> has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
> It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
> down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
>
> With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line Panasonic
> lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
> cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
> absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage. Then
> they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
>
> Ted
>
> On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
> > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
> > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
> > years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
> > unit, the worse components you find inside.
> >
> >
> > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
> > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
> > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
> buy'n'pray it
> > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I
> do not
> > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
> > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
> > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some
> "warranty
> > engineering" in mind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
> >
> > Pavel Boček
> > Jabber: [hidden email]
> > <a href="tel:+420%20739%20190%20151" value="+420739190151" target="_blank">+420 739 190 151
> > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> aj./capacitors
> > and more)
> > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
> >
> > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > Komu: [hidden email]
> > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
> > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> > apc to buy?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA512
> > >
> > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
> > >
> > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
> > >
> >
> > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
> >
> > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
> > >
> >
> > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
> > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
> > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
> > different
> > kind of battery I want to use"
> >
> > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
> > >
> > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
> > >
> >
> > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
> > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with,
> that
> > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long
> > as it
> > did when new.
> >
> > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
> > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
> > they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
> > heck, knows.
> >
> > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
> > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
> > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
> > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
> > > worse than APC?
> > >
> >
> > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
> > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
> > inefficient way of storing power.
> >
> > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
> > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
> > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
> >
> > You want to power the network device.
> >
> > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
> > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
> > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
> > supply which converts it back down to 5v
> >
> > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
> >
> > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of
> these
> > chips:
> >
> >
> http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
> >
> >
> > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
> > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
> > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery
> needed.
> >
> > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
> > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
> > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
> >
> > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
> > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
> > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
> > important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
> > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
> > wet cells.
> >
> > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
> > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
> > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
> > life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
> > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
> > the 48v power.
> >
> > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
> > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just
> scrap the
> > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a
> UPS at
> > all.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > > Fergus.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> Hi Fergus,
> > >>
> > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
> > >> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell
> you the
> > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP
> units
> > >> just have more batteries that's all.
> > >>
> > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't
> work. The
> > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point
> > that the
> > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
> > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
> > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
> > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
> > >>
> > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
> > regardless of
> > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
> batteries.
> > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
> > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
> > battery
> > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
> > will
> > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
> > >>
> > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
> > You
> > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
> > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
> > have
> > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
> > label back
> > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
> > APC's
> > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
> > last.
> > >>
> > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
> > >>
> > >> 1) kept cool
> > >> 2) low drawdown currents
> > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
> > >> 4) not fast-recharged
> > >> 5) Not undercharged
> > >> 6) not overcharged
> > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
> > >>
> > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
> > batteries
> > >> which are much tougher.
> > >>
> > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
> > their
> > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
> > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
> > batteries
> > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
> > years
> > >> later that is a match.
> > >>
> > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
> > battery
> > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
> > the
> > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
> > opinion
> > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ted
> > >>
> > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >>> Hash: SHA512
> > >>>
> > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
> > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > >>>> Hi Fergus,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regular
> > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> > >>>> Online
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
> > less than 10
> > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
> > this
> > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
> > ratings
> > >>>> and quite small batteries.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
> > battery
> > >>>> packs added.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
> > these are
> > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
> > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
> > between the
> > >>>> main power and inverter power.
> > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
> > intended use is.
> > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
> > replace the
> > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
> > replaced in
> > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
> > seconds. Replaced
> > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
> > or capacity.
> > >>>
> > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
> > easily keep
> > >>> it going for about an hour.
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
> > models will
> > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
> > the APC model?
> > >>>
> > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
> > probes
> > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
> > display
> > >>>> any temps.
> > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
> > useful
> > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
> > Wouldn't
> > >>> do without it.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
> > lifetime.
> > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
> > installed
> > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
> > through
> > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
> > and if
> > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
> > 2/3 of it's
> > >>>> lifespan)
> > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
> > have NEVER
> > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
> > Hence the real
> > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
> > calibration that
> > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
> > years.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
> > severely
> > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
> > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
> > it's new.
> > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
> > always
> > >>>> will kill it.
> > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
> > Yuasa NP?
> > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
> > the info.
> > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
> > only got
> > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
> > discharge
> > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
> > >>>
> > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
> > >>>
> > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
> > power
> > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
> > probably 50%
> > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
> > about 2-3
> > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
> > drops. Since
> > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
> > the load
> > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
> > if the
> > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
> > it to
> > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
> > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
> > we see.
> > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
> > cases, hence
> > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
> > normally
> > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
> > an hour
> > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
> > can
> > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
> > we see
> > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
> > RETURNCHARGE
> > >>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false
> > starts".
> > >>>
> > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
> > of time.
> > >>>> For that you need a generator.
> > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
> > killpower.
> > >>>
> > >>>> Ted
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS
> > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years
> > with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
> > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
> > misbehave when it really matters.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use
> > with apcupsd.
> > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
> > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
> > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
> > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
> > >
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
> > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) <a href="tel:+44%207721%20376021" value="+447721376021" target="_blank">+44 7721 376021
> > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) <a href="tel:+44%201522%20810839" value="+441522810839" target="_blank">+44 1522 810839
> > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> >
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Pavel Boček
In reply to this post by William P.N. Smith

Back-UPS ES (CyberFort II) suffer from the same problem as Smart-UPS actually, though on much higher scale. There are also few more problems like exploded transistors as the units are much dumber (and do not have so advanced protections like the Smart-UPS) plus they are not so much overspec'd as the Smarts. I have not yet seen any Smart with blown semiconductors so while they may exist, this shows how robust the platform was.


OFC this is not a huge statistic. However, as companies throw away thousands of these newer Smart-UPS series, replacing them with brand new units…don't you think they have a reason for that, like, they are not reliable? I mean if 5 units out of 100 go bad, for most corporations it is better to just throw all 100 away and get new ones. So yes, only few % may be bad, but they get ird of all because of them.


I already have couple dozen units on stock which need refurbishing and the guy I take them from confirms firms throw them away in huge numbers. He's in the electro-waste business so he has first-hand experience…


For me it actually does not matter how old it is, the problem is the same in ALL the units and I refurbish ALL of them anway before they go to sale. But I always check them so I can also pretty much see what is their current condition and make some guess how long would they work if I have not processed them. It is pretty much guaranteed the problem will appear, it is only a matter of time.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: William Smith <[hidden email]>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 15:42:38
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?


Oh, c'mon guys, be nice. We all know that failure rates and modes are complex and require good statistical inputs and analysis. 

Everyone here is seeing (essentially) anecdotal evidence at best. Unless some of us have seen thousands of failed UPSen and done root cause analysis on them, and not even APC is doing that for their older units. 

IME the cheaper units (BE550, etc), when they need new batteries, have maybe 50% chance of needing a new UPS, as something's gone wrong in the electronics. Only in rare circumstances do I bother to get a new battery and re-qualify the used unit. Higher-end units (SUA1000 class) nearly always work fine with new batteries, again IME. 

Speaking of batteries, how do people like the RefurbUPS replacements?  While I've had issues with their refurbished UPS units, their batteries seem OK. I tend to swap them out after 3-ish years anyway, as they are well under 50% capacity by then. On the other tentacle, they are in a warm environment (up to 95F, 32C in the summer months) so I don't feel they are awful. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]> wrote:

I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going bad about now.


Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.


So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you don't see it than there is no point in further discussion.


Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired them) so I know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on, continue making statements with no knowledge of the electronics…


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?




On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider)
> generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA models), they
> have much shorter average lifespan.
>

That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS manufactured in
2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in terms of
lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going then it has
lasted 19 years. If the
UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1 year.
Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.

You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current generation of
UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can do now
is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the failure rates
are comparable.

Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are overcharging
batteries.

>
> Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always around
> 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process removes the
> source of that so I have not noticed.
>

You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries when you
remove them when they have worn out, and how long the batteries last.

>
> As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all. Absoluje majority
> of SLA is AGM.
>

Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they are more
expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being better and so
when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
compounded by the battery retailers who stock the garbage-grade cheapest
lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years maximum
then they go back to the battery store and complain and the battery
retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.

But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are still buying
gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper than the
good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
you will find gel cells not AGM in them.

Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers flood the market
with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of the average
AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay a premium
for them.

trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad name.

Ted

>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
> I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.
>
> Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years. They
> used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure rate on
> the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
> SmartUPSes.
>
> But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
> SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.
>
> And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
> has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
> It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
> down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
>
> With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line Panasonic
> lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
> cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
> absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage. Then
> they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
>
> Ted
>
> On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
> > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
> > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
> > years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
> > unit, the worse components you find inside.
> >
> >
> > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
> > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
> > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
> buy'n'pray it
> > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I
> do not
> > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
> > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
> > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some
> "warranty
> > engineering" in mind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
> >
> > Pavel Boček
> > Jabber: [hidden email]
> > +420 739 190 151
> > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> aj./capacitors
> > and more)
> > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
> >
> > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > Komu: [hidden email]
> > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
> > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> > apc to buy?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA512
> > >
> > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
> > >
> > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
> > >
> >
> > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
> >
> > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
> > >
> >
> > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
> > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
> > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
> > different
> > kind of battery I want to use"
> >
> > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
> > >
> > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
> > >
> >
> > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
> > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with,
> that
> > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long
> > as it
> > did when new.
> >
> > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
> > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
> > they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
> > heck, knows.
> >
> > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
> > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
> > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
> > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
> > > worse than APC?
> > >
> >
> > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
> > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
> > inefficient way of storing power.
> >
> > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
> > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
> > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
> >
> > You want to power the network device.
> >
> > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
> > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
> > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
> > supply which converts it back down to 5v
> >
> > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
> >
> > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of
> these
> > chips:
> >
> >
> http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
> >
> >
> > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
> > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
> > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery
> needed.
> >
> > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
> > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
> > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
> >
> > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
> > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
> > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
> > important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
> > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
> > wet cells.
> >
> > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
> > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
> > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
> > life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
> > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
> > the 48v power.
> >
> > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
> > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just
> scrap the
> > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a
> UPS at
> > all.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > > Fergus.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> Hi Fergus,
> > >>
> > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
> > >> technical support and ask a presales question they will tell
> you the
> > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP
> units
> > >> just have more batteries that's all.
> > >>
> > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't
> work. The
> > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the point
> > that the
> > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
> > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
> > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
> > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
> > >>
> > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
> > regardless of
> > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
> batteries.
> > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
> > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
> > battery
> > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
> > will
> > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
> > >>
> > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
> > You
> > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
> > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
> > have
> > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
> > label back
> > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
> > APC's
> > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
> > last.
> > >>
> > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
> > >>
> > >> 1) kept cool
> > >> 2) low drawdown currents
> > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
> > >> 4) not fast-recharged
> > >> 5) Not undercharged
> > >> 6) not overcharged
> > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
> > >>
> > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
> > batteries
> > >> which are much tougher.
> > >>
> > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
> > their
> > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
> > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
> > batteries
> > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
> > years
> > >> later that is a match.
> > >>
> > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
> > battery
> > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
> > the
> > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
> > opinion
> > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ted
> > >>
> > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >>> Hash: SHA512
> > >>>
> > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
> > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > >>>> Hi Fergus,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very knowledgeable about:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions of UPSs:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regular
> > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> > >>>> Online
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
> > less than 10
> > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
> > this
> > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
> > ratings
> > >>>> and quite small batteries.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
> > battery
> > >>>> packs added.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
> > these are
> > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
> > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
> > between the
> > >>>> main power and inverter power.
> > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
> > intended use is.
> > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
> > replace the
> > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
> > replaced in
> > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
> > seconds. Replaced
> > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
> > or capacity.
> > >>>
> > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
> > easily keep
> > >>> it going for about an hour.
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
> > models will
> > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
> > the APC model?
> > >>>
> > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
> > probes
> > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
> > display
> > >>>> any temps.
> > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
> > useful
> > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
> > Wouldn't
> > >>> do without it.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
> > lifetime.
> > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
> > installed
> > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
> > through
> > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
> > and if
> > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
> > 2/3 of it's
> > >>>> lifespan)
> > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
> > have NEVER
> > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
> > Hence the real
> > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
> > calibration that
> > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
> > years.
> > >>>
> > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
> > severely
> > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
> > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
> > it's new.
> > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
> > always
> > >>>> will kill it.
> > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
> > Yuasa NP?
> > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
> > the info.
> > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
> > only got
> > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
> > discharge
> > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
> > >>>
> > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
> > >>>
> > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
> > power
> > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
> > probably 50%
> > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
> > about 2-3
> > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
> > drops. Since
> > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
> > the load
> > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
> > if the
> > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
> > it to
> > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
> > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
> > we see.
> > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
> > cases, hence
> > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
> > normally
> > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
> > an hour
> > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
> > can
> > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
> > we see
> > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
> > RETURNCHARGE
> > >>> values which I thought provided some protection against "false
> > starts".
> > >>>
> > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
> > of time.
> > >>>> For that you need a generator.
> > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
> > killpower.
> > >>>
> > >>>> Ted
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another APC UPS
> > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over the years
> > with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
> > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
> > misbehave when it really matters.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC to use
> > with apcupsd.
> > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
> > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
> > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
> > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
> > >
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
> > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
> > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
> > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Ted Mittelstaedt-5

Yes, for large corporations they will throw away working devices.  This
is not news.  In my city we have Intel and they throw away tons of 3
year old computers.  But they don't actually toss them, they palletize
them and have the "electro-waste" people AKA scroungers, bid on them
with the high bidder getting to haul away the pallets.

Big companies do this for 2 reasons.  First, they usually pay IT staff
trash wages so most IT staff that works for the Intels of the world
are greenhorns right out of the local community college and wouldn't be
able to troubleshoot their way out of a paper bag.   When they get good
they quit and get paid higher at smaller companies.

Second, they mostly outsource and the IT staffers working for the
outsource company are micro-managed like the dickens because every hour
of theirs has to be billed to the customer.

It is cheaper for Intel to buy 200 UPSes direct from Intel then when
their warranty runs out just scrap them and replace them with new ones.
They are buying in volume, and are large enough to buy direct from
APC so they are paying less than 1/4 of what you and I pay to buy the
same UPS.  To do a battery change would mean buying pallets of lead
acid batteries which are hazmat and the IT outsourcer would probably
charge twice as much per hour to handle them.  Then the IT staff would
bill out at least 1/2 hour per UPS battery swap since they would need
to test the batteries out in the UPS, and might have to pry out bulging
batteries that had hit thermal runaway.

As for older electronics I've seen my share, I've done board-level
repairs at the component level myself in the past.  I know my way around
a soldering iron.  90% o the failures I have seen in OLDER electronic
gear is blown electrolytic capacitors and anyone who is familiar with
electronics knows all about this.  Back a few years ago when display
panels were super expensive I would actually go to the trouble of
ordering replacement caps (the decent expensive ones) and repairing
them with about a 70% success rate.   But today most of that gear is
too cheap to bother with it.

If you have a waste stream of dozens or hundreds of the SAME devices
that you can refurbish, more power to you.  It will take you 4 hours to
do the very first one then 20 minutes to do the next one and then you
can probably knock the other 90 of them out in 5 minutes.   But most
people don't have that and so even if they know how to fix the stuff
(like I do) it's not profitable to do it.

And in many cases the labor to actually test it is far in excess of what
it's worth.  I have right here (I'm typing on it) a HP ProBook 6475b
that ever since January would randomly blue screen.  It did it about 6
times in January and February.  I finally decided to troubleshoot it and
ran diagnostics all weekend on it with nothing.  So as a last ditch I
pulled one of the SODIMMS.  a week later it blue screened.  I then
exchanged that SODIMM with the other one in the system and since then it
hasn't blue-screened.   However, I will have to run it for probably
another month before being absolutely sure that I got the problem
licked.   I cannot imagine a customer handing me a flaky laptop and
letting me hang on to it for 2 months just to fix a problem - and do it
on blind luck.

I have another HP laptop that blue-screens randomly about once a
month.   How long do you think it would take for me to troubleshoot it
by parts substitution to be sure it was good?

Lastly, the current BackUPS ES are cost-reduced devices that are sold
to people who buy them to slide under the desks of cube farm workers
to prevent them from losing 6 hours of work when the power dies and
they have a spreadsheet open that they haven't saved all day long.
They are essentially morale-boosters.  When you have a large cube farm
you do things for your employees that make their lives easier purely
to help fend off negativity.   You take a cube farm with 50 employees
in it, you get a power flicker and 50 machines reboot, and 1 guy loses
4 hours of work and he's going to spend the rest of the day pissed off
that he didn't save, and his negativity will affect everyone else and
by the time he works out his anger in his system by peeing in everyone's
ear, you have lost at least 50-60 hours of productivity.

Someone like Intel buys these cheap UPSes by the palletload and
hands them out like candy.  It is cheaper for them to just throw them
away after their warranty runs out and buy another.   So why are you
faulting APC for building the BackUPS that way?  It's what their
customers want.

I have little sympathy for people who go out and buy BackUPSes and
attempt to run servers on them.  At one time APC produced BackUPS
UPSes that were suitable for mission-critical uses, but today the only
UPS they make that should ever be in a serer room is a SmartUPS.

Ted

On 3/25/2017 8:54 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:

> Back-UPS ES (CyberFort II) suffer from the same problem as Smart-UPS
> actually, though on much higher scale. There are also few more problems
> like exploded transistors as the units are much dumber (and do not have
> so advanced protections like the Smart-UPS) plus they are not so much
> overspec'd as the Smarts. I have not yet seen any Smart with blown
> semiconductors so while they may exist, this shows how robust the
> platform was.
>
>
> OFC this is not a huge statistic. However, as companies throw away
> thousands of these newer Smart-UPS series, replacing them with brand new
> units…don't you think they have a reason for that, like, they are not
> reliable? I mean if 5 units out of 100 go bad, for most corporations it
> is better to just throw all 100 away and get new ones. So yes, only few
> % may be bad, but they get ird of all because of them.
>
>
> I already have couple dozen units on stock which need refurbishing and
> the guy I take them from confirms firms throw them away in huge numbers.
> He's in the electro-waste business so he has first-hand experience…
>
>
> For me it actually does not matter how old it is, the problem is the
> same in ALL the units and I refurbish ALL of them anway before they go
> to sale. But I always check them so I can also pretty much see what is
> their current condition and make some guess how long would they work if
> I have not processed them. It is pretty much guaranteed the problem will
> appear, it is only a matter of time.
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: William Smith <[hidden email]>
> Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Datum: 25. 3. 2017 15:42:38
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
>     Oh, c'mon guys, be nice. We all know that failure rates and modes
>     are complex and require good statistical inputs and analysis.
>
>     Everyone here is seeing (essentially) anecdotal evidence at best.
>     Unless some of us have seen thousands of failed UPSen and done root
>     cause analysis on them, and not even APC is doing that for their
>     older units.
>
>     IME the cheaper units (BE550, etc), when they need new batteries,
>     have maybe 50% chance of needing a new UPS, as something's gone
>     wrong in the electronics. Only in rare circumstances do I bother to
>     get a new battery and re-qualify the used unit. Higher-end units
>     (SUA1000 class) nearly always work fine with new batteries, again IME.
>
>     Speaking of batteries, how do people like the RefurbUPS
>     replacements?  While I've had issues with their refurbished UPS
>     units, their batteries seem OK. I tend to swap them out after 3-ish
>     years anyway, as they are well under 50% capacity by then. On the
>     other tentacle, they are in a warm environment (up to 95F, 32C in
>     the summer months) so I don't feel they are awful.
>
>     Sent from my iPhone
>
>     On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going
>         bad about now.
>
>
>         Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.
>
>
>         So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you
>         don't see it than there is no point in further discussion.
>
>
>         Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired
>         them) so I know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on,
>         continue making statements with no knowledge of the electronics…
>
>
>         --
>         S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
>         Pavel Boček
>         Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         +420 739 190 151
>         http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>         aj./capacitors and more)
>         http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
>         ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
>         Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>         Komu: [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
>         Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd
>         compatible apc to buy?
>
>
>
>
>             On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
>             > 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC
>             (non-Schneider)
>             > generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA
>             models), they
>             > have much shorter average lifespan.
>             >
>
>             That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS
>             manufactured in
>             2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in
>             terms of
>             lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going
>             then it has
>             lasted 19 years. If the
>             UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1
>             year.
>             Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.
>
>             You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current
>             generation of
>             UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can
>             do now
>             is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the
>             failure rates
>             are comparable.
>
>             Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are
>             overcharging
>             batteries.
>
>             >
>             > Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is
>             always around
>             > 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process
>             removes the
>             > source of that so I have not noticed.
>             >
>
>             You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries
>             when you
>             remove them when they have worn out, and how long the
>             batteries last.
>
>             >
>             > As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all.
>             Absoluje majority
>             > of SLA is AGM.
>             >
>
>             Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they
>             are more
>             expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
>             expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being
>             better and so
>             when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
>             compounded by the battery retailers who stock the
>             garbage-grade cheapest
>             lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
>             the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years
>             maximum
>             then they go back to the battery store and complain and the
>             battery
>             retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.
>
>             But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are
>             still buying
>             gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper
>             than the
>             good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
>             you will find gel cells not AGM in them.
>
>             Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers
>             flood the market
>             with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of
>             the average
>             AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay
>             a premium
>             for them.
>
>             trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
>             more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad
>             name.
>
>             Ted
>
>             >
>             > --
>             > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>             >
>             > Pavel Boček
>             > Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             > +420 739 190 151
>             > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>             aj./capacitors
>             > and more)
>             > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and
>             more)
>             >
>             > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
>             > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>             > Komu: [hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             > Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
>             > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd
>             compatible
>             > apc to buy?
>             >
>             >
>             > I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series
>             of UPSes.
>             >
>             > Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the
>             years. They
>             > used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure
>             rate on
>             > the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older
>             steel-enclosed
>             > SmartUPSes.
>             >
>             > But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different
>             than the old
>             > SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500
>             UPSes fail.
>             >
>             > And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery
>             charger voltage
>             > has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when
>             they got older.
>             > It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery
>             charger voltage
>             > down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
>             >
>             > With batteries you get what you pay for. The
>             top-of-the-line Panasonic
>             > lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the
>             time that the
>             > cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you
>             really are
>             > absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger
>             voltage. Then
>             > they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
>             >
>             > Ted
>             >
>             > On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
>             > > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan
>             it has, on
>             > > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still
>             kick for a few
>             > > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer
>             generations 5
>             > > years old in the same state. It is partially because of
>             the newer the
>             > > unit, the worse components you find inside.
>             > >
>             > >
>             > > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next
>             20 years. The
>             > > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it
>             made by
>             > > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
>             > buy'n'pray it
>             > > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper
>             plastics. I
>             > do not
>             > > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so
>             long as the old
>             > > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than
>             constant tiny
>             > > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed
>             with some
>             > "warranty
>             > > engineering" in mind.
>             > >
>             > >
>             > > --
>             > > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>             > >
>             > > Pavel Boček
>             > > Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             > > +420 739 190 151
>             > > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>             > aj./capacitors
>             > > and more)
>             > > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews
>             and more)
>             > >
>             > > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
>             > > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>             > > Komu: [hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             > > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
>             > > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO
>             apcupsd compatible
>             > > apc to buy?
>             > >
>             > >
>             > >
>             > >
>             > > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
>             > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>             > > > Hash: SHA512
>             > > >
>             > > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
>             > > >
>             > > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
>             > > >
>             > >
>             > > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
>             > >
>             > > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
>             > > >
>             > >
>             > > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to
>             report back as
>             > > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It
>             does not
>             > > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance
>             with this
>             > > different
>             > > kind of battery I want to use"
>             > >
>             > > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
>             > > >
>             > > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
>             > > >
>             > >
>             > > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured
>             in the last 5
>             > > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it
>             came with,
>             > that
>             > > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and
>             for as long
>             > > as it
>             > > did when new.
>             > >
>             > > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel
>             cells anymore.
>             > > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are
>             AGM. Whether
>             > > they will last longer and thus justify their higher
>             expense - who the
>             > > heck, knows.
>             > >
>             > > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware"
>             UPS. Based on
>             > > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp
>             and voltage
>             > > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have
>             endlessly
>             > > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios.
>             Could it be much
>             > > > worse than APC?
>             > > >
>             > >
>             > > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS
>             really does I
>             > > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a
>             horrendously
>             > > inefficient way of storing power.
>             > >
>             > > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a
>             router. It has
>             > > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar
>             cell array that
>             > > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
>             > >
>             > > You want to power the network device.
>             > >
>             > > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the
>             solar array
>             > > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power
>             to an inverter
>             > > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the
>             router's power
>             > > supply which converts it back down to 5v
>             > >
>             > > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
>             > >
>             > > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it
>             into one of
>             > these
>             > > chips:
>             > >
>             > >
>             >
>             http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
>             > >
>             > >
>             > > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an
>             efficiency well
>             > > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the
>             router power
>             > > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No
>             battery
>             > needed.
>             > >
>             > > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting
>             wall AC power
>             > > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that
>             might have even
>             > > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
>             > >
>             > > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for
>             efficiency. A
>             > > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up
>             efficiency in power
>             > > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience
>             is the most
>             > > important, you will be more than happy to give up long
>             battery life
>             > > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining
>             bank of
>             > > wet cells.
>             > >
>             > > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be
>             purchased to run off
>             > > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
>             > > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get
>             the max battery
>             > > life they do not want to waste any battery power on
>             inverters, so
>             > > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power
>             everything off
>             > > the 48v power.
>             > >
>             > > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a
>             Mac Mini. Well,
>             > > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't?
>             Just
>             > scrap the
>             > > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't
>             likely need a
>             > UPS at
>             > > all.
>             > >
>             > > Ted
>             > >
>             > > > Fergus.
>             > > >
>             > > >
>             > > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt
>             <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>             > > wrote:
>             > > >> Hi Fergus,
>             > > >>
>             > > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you
>             contact APC
>             > > >> technical support and ask a presales question they
>             will tell
>             > you the
>             > > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of
>             batteries the XP
>             > units
>             > > >> just have more batteries that's all.
>             > > >>
>             > > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days
>             don't
>             > work. The
>             > > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to
>             the point
>             > > that the
>             > > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That
>             shortens the lifespan
>             > > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle
>             batteries but
>             > > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel
>             cells today is
>             > > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping
>             expensive though.
>             > > >>
>             > > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
>             > > regardless of
>             > > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
>             > batteries.
>             > > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since
>             I don't think
>             > > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY
>             lead acid
>             > > battery
>             > > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your
>             trollng motor
>             > > will
>             > > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
>             > > >>
>             > > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead
>             acid gel cells.
>             > > You
>             > > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an
>             HR as part of
>             > > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new
>             UPSes but I
>             > > have
>             > > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel
>             the APC
>             > > label back
>             > > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a
>             little trick of
>             > > APC's
>             > > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of
>             how long they
>             > > last.
>             > > >>
>             > > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
>             > > >>
>             > > >> 1) kept cool
>             > > >> 2) low drawdown currents
>             > > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
>             > > >> 4) not fast-recharged
>             > > >> 5) Not undercharged
>             > > >> 6) not overcharged
>             > > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
>             > > >>
>             > > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell
>             lead-acid
>             > > batteries
>             > > >> which are much tougher.
>             > > >>
>             > > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery
>             charger and
>             > > their
>             > > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the
>             batteries they use
>             > > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory
>             loaded
>             > > batteries
>             > > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement
>             battery 3 or 4
>             > > years
>             > > >> later that is a match.
>             > > >>
>             > > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a
>             multimeter on the
>             > > battery
>             > > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then
>             compare it to
>             > > the
>             > > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float
>             voltage. In my
>             > > opinion
>             > > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries -
>             overcharging.
>             > > >>
>             > > >>
>             > > >> Ted
>             > > >>
>             > > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need
>             a generator.
>             > > >>
>             > > >>
>             > > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>             > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>             > > >>> Hash: SHA512
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very
>             interesting, and as
>             > > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>             > > >>>> Hi Fergus,
>             > > >>>>
>             > > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very
>             knowledgeable about:
>             > > >>>>
>             > > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions
>             of UPSs:
>             > > >>>>
>             > > >>>> Regular
>             > > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>             > > >>>> Online
>             > > >>>>
>             > > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power
>             outages of
>             > > less than 10
>             > > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end"
>             APC upses are
>             > > this
>             > > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have
>             very high VA
>             > > ratings
>             > > >>>> and quite small batteries.
>             > > >>>>
>             > > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can
>             have external
>             > > battery
>             > > >>>> packs added.
>             > > >>>>
>             > > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run
>             continuously
>             > > these are
>             > > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if
>             there was a
>             > > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay
>             switching
>             > > between the
>             > > >>>> main power and inverter power.
>             > > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
>             > > intended use is.
>             > > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I
>             have to
>             > > replace the
>             > > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover'
>             they need
>             > > replaced in
>             > > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
>             > > seconds. Replaced
>             > > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant
>             predict runtime
>             > > or capacity.
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New
>             batteries can
>             > > easily keep
>             > > >>> it going for about an hour.
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and
>             Extended Life
>             > > models will
>             > > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement
>             battery to
>             > > the APC model?
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.
>             You must add
>             > > probes
>             > > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS
>             generally don't
>             > > display
>             > > >>>> any temps.
>             > > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp
>             sensor a very
>             > > useful
>             > > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around
>             the server.
>             > > Wouldn't
>             > > >>> do without it.
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during
>             a battery
>             > > lifetime.
>             > > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries
>             have been
>             > > installed
>             > > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is
>             about halfway
>             > > through
>             > > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run
>             regularly
>             > > and if
>             > > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life
>             (such as by
>             > > 2/3 of it's
>             > > >>>> lifespan)
>             > > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new
>             batteries. However I
>             > > have NEVER
>             > > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name)
>             battery.
>             > > Hence the real
>             > > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
>             > > calibration that
>             > > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries
>             over the
>             > > years.
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost
>             flat" it
>             > > severely
>             > > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can
>             get about 10
>             > > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And,
>             only when
>             > > it's new.
>             > > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down
>             flat almost
>             > > always
>             > > >>>> will kill it.
>             > > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web
>             suggesting that
>             > > Yuasa NP?
>             > > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I
>             misreading
>             > > the info.
>             > > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily
>             ensure they
>             > > only got
>             > > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is
>             configured to
>             > > discharge
>             > > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>             > > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the
>             machine when main
>             > > power
>             > > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine
>             because in
>             > > probably 50%
>             > > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on
>             there will be
>             > > about 2-3
>             > > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of
>             momentary
>             > > drops. Since
>             > > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will
>             drop power to
>             > > the load
>             > > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.
>             Basically,
>             > > if the
>             > > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should
>             NEVER configure
>             > > it to
>             > > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a
>             power loss.
>             > > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature
>             of the cuts
>             > > we see.
>             > > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around
>             10min in most
>             > > cases, hence
>             > > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for
>             30-40min. That
>             > > normally
>             > > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is
>             longer than
>             > > an hour
>             > > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year),
>             then the server
>             > > can
>             > > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of
>             over an hour
>             > > we see
>             > > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the
>             WAKEUP and
>             > > RETURNCHARGE
>             > > >>> values which I thought provided some protection
>             against "false
>             > > starts".
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for
>             long periods
>             > > of time.
>             > > >>>> For that you need a generator.
>             > > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled
>             shutdown and
>             > > killpower.
>             > > >>>
>             > > >>>> Ted
>             > > >>>>
>             > > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>             > > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy
>             another APC UPS
>             > > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second
>             hand unit.
>             > > >>>>>
>             > > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over
>             the years
>             > > with mixed success. Especially after changing or
>             recalibrating the
>             > > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes
>             the apcupsd to
>             > > misbehave when it really matters.
>             > > >>>>>
>             > > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible
>             APC to use
>             > > with apcupsd.
>             > > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>             > > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC
>             status variables
>             > > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>             > > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>             > > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos
>             10.6 - 10. 10)
>             > > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>             > > >>>>>
>             > > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
>             > > >
>             > > >
>             > >
>             ======================================================================
>             > > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             > > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
>             > > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44
>             1522 810839
>             > > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
>             > > >
>             > >
>             ======================================================================
>             > > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
>             > > >
>             > > >
>             > > >
>             > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>             > > > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
>             > > >
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>             > > >
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>             > > >
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>             > > > mjojzo1E/gWx4+HLgkHC
>             > > > =/1sG
>             > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>             > > >
>             > > >
>             > >
>             >
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             > >
>             > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>             world's most
>             > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org
>             <http://slashdot.org>! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>             > > > _______________________________________________
>             > > > Apcupsd-users mailing list
>             > > > [hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
>             > > >
>             > >
>             > >
>             >
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>             > >
>             > >
>             > >
>             > >
>             >
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>             > >
>             >
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Pavel Boček

Small and medium companies hardly get 1/4 the end price but they do it the very same way, besides absolute minimum number of them who get it refurbished with quality stuff which means several times longer lifespan than original. The work and Panasonic batteries are together still cheaper than the "genuine" APC Long's, by the way, well at least I charge it so it is.


The pricing is actually funny because when I asked for reseller prices from "official" distributors I got worse quote than what I can buy the APC units from random e-shops for. That's for their pricing.


You see my problem with this attitude is not that long time ago pretty much all the units vere much better built. I still run into as long as two decades old units and even the cheapest plastic ones (first Cyberfort generation) are often OK. Everything which comes new from fab today is garbage withhout knowing when it dies on you, the only question is when. I mean, by the end of 90s you could still buy quality stuff when you payed more. Since than everybody started competing with the Chinese, cutting every possible corner. So you often can not buy quality because they just don't offer it anymore! Yet it is not really that much cheaper, Smart-UPS units are about 10-20 % more expensive on our market EACH YEAR. One would expect some quality when 1500VA units cost almost as much as some old cars…I agree that Smart-UPS is the best to get, but I see that all the time - "it's too expensive I only want to give so much" so they buy some plastic crap, no matter if Back-UPS ES, CS or RS (BRx000G), it's pretty much the same shit.


Laptops usually have problems with chipsets, lately with SoC the main processors themselves so if you want to be sure, replace those. Not reflow, replace. Most likely it is only a temporary improvement in stability now.


--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: [hidden email]
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]>
Komu: [hidden email]
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 0:06:48
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?



Yes, for large corporations they will throw away working devices. This
is not news. In my city we have Intel and they throw away tons of 3
year old computers. But they don't actually toss them, they palletize
them and have the "electro-waste" people AKA scroungers, bid on them
with the high bidder getting to haul away the pallets.

Big companies do this for 2 reasons. First, they usually pay IT staff
trash wages so most IT staff that works for the Intels of the world
are greenhorns right out of the local community college and wouldn't be
able to troubleshoot their way out of a paper bag. When they get good
they quit and get paid higher at smaller companies.

Second, they mostly outsource and the IT staffers working for the
outsource company are micro-managed like the dickens because every hour
of theirs has to be billed to the customer.

It is cheaper for Intel to buy 200 UPSes direct from Intel then when
their warranty runs out just scrap them and replace them with new ones.
They are buying in volume, and are large enough to buy direct from
APC so they are paying less than 1/4 of what you and I pay to buy the
same UPS. To do a battery change would mean buying pallets of lead
acid batteries which are hazmat and the IT outsourcer would probably
charge twice as much per hour to handle them. Then the IT staff would
bill out at least 1/2 hour per UPS battery swap since they would need
to test the batteries out in the UPS, and might have to pry out bulging
batteries that had hit thermal runaway.

As for older electronics I've seen my share, I've done board-level
repairs at the component level myself in the past. I know my way around
a soldering iron. 90% o the failures I have seen in OLDER electronic
gear is blown electrolytic capacitors and anyone who is familiar with
electronics knows all about this. Back a few years ago when display
panels were super expensive I would actually go to the trouble of
ordering replacement caps (the decent expensive ones) and repairing
them with about a 70% success rate. But today most of that gear is
too cheap to bother with it.

If you have a waste stream of dozens or hundreds of the SAME devices
that you can refurbish, more power to you. It will take you 4 hours to
do the very first one then 20 minutes to do the next one and then you
can probably knock the other 90 of them out in 5 minutes. But most
people don't have that and so even if they know how to fix the stuff
(like I do) it's not profitable to do it.

And in many cases the labor to actually test it is far in excess of what
it's worth. I have right here (I'm typing on it) a HP ProBook 6475b
that ever since January would randomly blue screen. It did it about 6
times in January and February. I finally decided to troubleshoot it and
ran diagnostics all weekend on it with nothing. So as a last ditch I
pulled one of the SODIMMS. a week later it blue screened. I then
exchanged that SODIMM with the other one in the system and since then it
hasn't blue-screened. However, I will have to run it for probably
another month before being absolutely sure that I got the problem
licked. I cannot imagine a customer handing me a flaky laptop and
letting me hang on to it for 2 months just to fix a problem - and do it
on blind luck.

I have another HP laptop that blue-screens randomly about once a
month. How long do you think it would take for me to troubleshoot it
by parts substitution to be sure it was good?

Lastly, the current BackUPS ES are cost-reduced devices that are sold
to people who buy them to slide under the desks of cube farm workers
to prevent them from losing 6 hours of work when the power dies and
they have a spreadsheet open that they haven't saved all day long.
They are essentially morale-boosters. When you have a large cube farm
you do things for your employees that make their lives easier purely
to help fend off negativity. You take a cube farm with 50 employees
in it, you get a power flicker and 50 machines reboot, and 1 guy loses
4 hours of work and he's going to spend the rest of the day pissed off
that he didn't save, and his negativity will affect everyone else and
by the time he works out his anger in his system by peeing in everyone's
ear, you have lost at least 50-60 hours of productivity.

Someone like Intel buys these cheap UPSes by the palletload and
hands them out like candy. It is cheaper for them to just throw them
away after their warranty runs out and buy another. So why are you
faulting APC for building the BackUPS that way? It's what their
customers want.

I have little sympathy for people who go out and buy BackUPSes and
attempt to run servers on them. At one time APC produced BackUPS
UPSes that were suitable for mission-critical uses, but today the only
UPS they make that should ever be in a serer room is a SmartUPS.

Ted

On 3/25/2017 8:54 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:

> Back-UPS ES (CyberFort II) suffer from the same problem as Smart-UPS
> actually, though on much higher scale. There are also few more problems
> like exploded transistors as the units are much dumber (and do not have
> so advanced protections like the Smart-UPS) plus they are not so much
> overspec'd as the Smarts. I have not yet seen any Smart with blown
> semiconductors so while they may exist, this shows how robust the
> platform was.
>
>
> OFC this is not a huge statistic. However, as companies throw away
> thousands of these newer Smart-UPS series, replacing them with brand new
> units…don't you think they have a reason for that, like, they are not
> reliable? I mean if 5 units out of 100 go bad, for most corporations it
> is better to just throw all 100 away and get new ones. So yes, only few
> % may be bad, but they get ird of all because of them.
>
>
> I already have couple dozen units on stock which need refurbishing and
> the guy I take them from confirms firms throw them away in huge numbers.
> He's in the electro-waste business so he has first-hand experience…
>
>
> For me it actually does not matter how old it is, the problem is the
> same in ALL the units and I refurbish ALL of them anway before they go
> to sale. But I always check them so I can also pretty much see what is
> their current condition and make some guess how long would they work if
> I have not processed them. It is pretty much guaranteed the problem will
> appear, it is only a matter of time.
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email]
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
> and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: William Smith <[hidden email]>
> Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Datum: 25. 3. 2017 15:42:38
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible
> apc to buy?
>
>
> Oh, c'mon guys, be nice. We all know that failure rates and modes
> are complex and require good statistical inputs and analysis.
>
> Everyone here is seeing (essentially) anecdotal evidence at best.
> Unless some of us have seen thousands of failed UPSen and done root
> cause analysis on them, and not even APC is doing that for their
> older units.
>
> IME the cheaper units (BE550, etc), when they need new batteries,
> have maybe 50% chance of needing a new UPS, as something's gone
> wrong in the electronics. Only in rare circumstances do I bother to
> get a new battery and re-qualify the used unit. Higher-end units
> (SUA1000 class) nearly always work fine with new batteries, again IME.
>
> Speaking of batteries, how do people like the RefurbUPS
> replacements? While I've had issues with their refurbished UPS
> units, their batteries seem OK. I tend to swap them out after 3-ish
> years anyway, as they are well under 50% capacity by then. On the
> other tentacle, they are in a warm environment (up to 95F, 32C in
> the summer months) so I don't feel they are awful.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going
> bad about now.
>
>
> Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.
>
>
> So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you
> don't see it than there is no point in further discussion.
>
>
> Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired
> them) so I know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on,
> continue making statements with no knowledge of the electronics…
>
>
> --
> S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>
> Pavel Boček
> Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> +420 739 190 151
> http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> aj./capacitors and more)
> http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
>
> ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Komu: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
> Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd
> compatible apc to buy?
>
>
>
>
> On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> > 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC
> (non-Schneider)
> > generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA
> models), they
> > have much shorter average lifespan.
> >
>
> That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS
> manufactured in
> 2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in
> terms of
> lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going
> then it has
> lasted 19 years. If the
> UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1
> year.
> Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.
>
> You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current
> generation of
> UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can
> do now
> is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the
> failure rates
> are comparable.
>
> Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are
> overcharging
> batteries.
>
> >
> > Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is
> always around
> > 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process
> removes the
> > source of that so I have not noticed.
> >
>
> You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries
> when you
> remove them when they have worn out, and how long the
> batteries last.
>
> >
> > As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all.
> Absoluje majority
> > of SLA is AGM.
> >
>
> Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they
> are more
> expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
> expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being
> better and so
> when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
> compounded by the battery retailers who stock the
> garbage-grade cheapest
> lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
> the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years
> maximum
> then they go back to the battery store and complain and the
> battery
> retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.
>
> But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are
> still buying
> gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper
> than the
> good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
> you will find gel cells not AGM in them.
>
> Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers
> flood the market
> with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of
> the average
> AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay
> a premium
> for them.
>
> trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
> more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad
> name.
>
> Ted
>
> >
> > --
> > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
> >
> > Pavel Boček
> > Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > +420 739 190 151
> > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> aj./capacitors
> > and more)
> > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and
> more)
> >
> > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> > Komu: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
> > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd
> compatible
> > apc to buy?
> >
> >
> > I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series
> of UPSes.
> >
> > Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the
> years. They
> > used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure
> rate on
> > the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older
> steel-enclosed
> > SmartUPSes.
> >
> > But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different
> than the old
> > SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500
> UPSes fail.
> >
> > And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery
> charger voltage
> > has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when
> they got older.
> > It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery
> charger voltage
> > down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
> >
> > With batteries you get what you pay for. The
> top-of-the-line Panasonic
> > lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the
> time that the
> > cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you
> really are
> > absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger
> voltage. Then
> > they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
> > > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan
> it has, on
> > > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still
> kick for a few
> > > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer
> generations 5
> > > years old in the same state. It is partially because of
> the newer the
> > > unit, the worse components you find inside.
> > >
> > >
> > > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next
> 20 years. The
> > > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it
> made by
> > > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
> > buy'n'pray it
> > > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper
> plastics. I
> > do not
> > > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so
> long as the old
> > > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than
> constant tiny
> > > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed
> with some
> > "warranty
> > > engineering" in mind.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
> > >
> > > Pavel Boček
> > > Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > > +420 739 190 151
> > > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
> > aj./capacitors
> > > and more)
> > > http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews
> and more)
> > >
> > > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
> > > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> > > Komu: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
> > > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO
> apcupsd compatible
> > > apc to buy?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
> > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > > Hash: SHA512
> > > >
> > > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
> > > >
> > > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
> > > >
> > >
> > > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
> > >
> > > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
> > > >
> > >
> > > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to
> report back as
> > > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It
> does not
> > > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance
> with this
> > > different
> > > kind of battery I want to use"
> > >
> > > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
> > > >
> > > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured
> in the last 5
> > > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it
> came with,
> > that
> > > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and
> for as long
> > > as it
> > > did when new.
> > >
> > > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel
> cells anymore.
> > > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are
> AGM. Whether
> > > they will last longer and thus justify their higher
> expense - who the
> > > heck, knows.
> > >
> > > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware"
> UPS. Based on
> > > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp
> and voltage
> > > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have
> endlessly
> > > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios.
> Could it be much
> > > > worse than APC?
> > > >
> > >
> > > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS
> really does I
> > > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a
> horrendously
> > > inefficient way of storing power.
> > >
> > > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a
> router. It has
> > > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar
> cell array that
> > > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
> > >
> > > You want to power the network device.
> > >
> > > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the
> solar array
> > > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power
> to an inverter
> > > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the
> router's power
> > > supply which converts it back down to 5v
> > >
> > > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
> > >
> > > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it
> into one of
> > these
> > > chips:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
> > >
> > >
> > > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an
> efficiency well
> > > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the
> router power
> > > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No
> battery
> > needed.
> > >
> > > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting
> wall AC power
> > > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that
> might have even
> > > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
> > >
> > > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for
> efficiency. A
> > > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up
> efficiency in power
> > > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience
> is the most
> > > important, you will be more than happy to give up long
> battery life
> > > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining
> bank of
> > > wet cells.
> > >
> > > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be
> purchased to run off
> > > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
> > > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get
> the max battery
> > > life they do not want to waste any battery power on
> inverters, so
> > > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power
> everything off
> > > the 48v power.
> > >
> > > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a
> Mac Mini. Well,
> > > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't?
> Just
> > scrap the
> > > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't
> likely need a
> > UPS at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > > Fergus.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> Hi Fergus,
> > > >>
> > > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you
> contact APC
> > > >> technical support and ask a presales question they
> will tell
> > you the
> > > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of
> batteries the XP
> > units
> > > >> just have more batteries that's all.
> > > >>
> > > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days
> don't
> > work. The
> > > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to
> the point
> > > that the
> > > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That
> shortens the lifespan
> > > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle
> batteries but
> > > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel
> cells today is
> > > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping
> expensive though.
> > > >>
> > > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
> > > regardless of
> > > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
> > batteries.
> > > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since
> I don't think
> > > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY
> lead acid
> > > battery
> > > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your
> trollng motor
> > > will
> > > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
> > > >>
> > > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead
> acid gel cells.
> > > You
> > > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an
> HR as part of
> > > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new
> UPSes but I
> > > have
> > > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel
> the APC
> > > label back
> > > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a
> little trick of
> > > APC's
> > > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of
> how long they
> > > last.
> > > >>
> > > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1) kept cool
> > > >> 2) low drawdown currents
> > > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
> > > >> 4) not fast-recharged
> > > >> 5) Not undercharged
> > > >> 6) not overcharged
> > > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
> > > >>
> > > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell
> lead-acid
> > > batteries
> > > >> which are much tougher.
> > > >>
> > > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery
> charger and
> > > their
> > > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the
> batteries they use
> > > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory
> loaded
> > > batteries
> > > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement
> battery 3 or 4
> > > years
> > > >> later that is a match.
> > > >>
> > > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a
> multimeter on the
> > > battery
> > > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then
> compare it to
> > > the
> > > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float
> voltage. In my
> > > opinion
> > > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries -
> overcharging.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Ted
> > > >>
> > > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need
> a generator.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > >>> Hash: SHA512
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very
> interesting, and as
> > > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> > > >>>> Hi Fergus,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very
> knowledgeable about:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions
> of UPSs:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Regular
> > > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
> > > >>>> Online
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power
> outages of
> > > less than 10
> > > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end"
> APC upses are
> > > this
> > > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have
> very high VA
> > > ratings
> > > >>>> and quite small batteries.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can
> have external
> > > battery
> > > >>>> packs added.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run
> continuously
> > > these are
> > > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if
> there was a
> > > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay
> switching
> > > between the
> > > >>>> main power and inverter power.
> > > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
> > > intended use is.
> > > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I
> have to
> > > replace the
> > > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover'
> they need
> > > replaced in
> > > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
> > > seconds. Replaced
> > > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant
> predict runtime
> > > or capacity.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New
> batteries can
> > > easily keep
> > > >>> it going for about an hour.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and
> Extended Life
> > > models will
> > > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement
> battery to
> > > the APC model?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp.
> You must add
> > > probes
> > > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS
> generally don't
> > > display
> > > >>>> any temps.
> > > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp
> sensor a very
> > > useful
> > > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around
> the server.
> > > Wouldn't
> > > >>> do without it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during
> a battery
> > > lifetime.
> > > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries
> have been
> > > installed
> > > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is
> about halfway
> > > through
> > > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run
> regularly
> > > and if
> > > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life
> (such as by
> > > 2/3 of it's
> > > >>>> lifespan)
> > > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new
> batteries. However I
> > > have NEVER
> > > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name)
> battery.
> > > Hence the real
> > > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
> > > calibration that
> > > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries
> over the
> > > years.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost
> flat" it
> > > severely
> > > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can
> get about 10
> > > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And,
> only when
> > > it's new.
> > > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down
> flat almost
> > > always
> > > >>>> will kill it.
> > > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web
> suggesting that
> > > Yuasa NP?
> > > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I
> misreading
> > > the info.
> > > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily
> ensure they
> > > only got
> > > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is
> configured to
> > > discharge
> > > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
> > > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the
> machine when main
> > > power
> > > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine
> because in
> > > probably 50%
> > > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on
> there will be
> > > about 2-3
> > > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of
> momentary
> > > drops. Since
> > > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will
> drop power to
> > > the load
> > > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.
> Basically,
> > > if the
> > > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should
> NEVER configure
> > > it to
> > > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a
> power loss.
> > > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature
> of the cuts
> > > we see.
> > > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around
> 10min in most
> > > cases, hence
> > > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for
> 30-40min. That
> > > normally
> > > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is
> longer than
> > > an hour
> > > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year),
> then the server
> > > can
> > > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of
> over an hour
> > > we see
> > > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the
> WAKEUP and
> > > RETURNCHARGE
> > > >>> values which I thought provided some protection
> against "false
> > > starts".
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for
> long periods
> > > of time.
> > > >>>> For that you need a generator.
> > > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled
> shutdown and
> > > killpower.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Ted
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
> > > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy
> another APC UPS
> > > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second
> hand unit.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over
> the years
> > > with mixed success. Especially after changing or
> recalibrating the
> > > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes
> the apcupsd to
> > > misbehave when it really matters.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible
> APC to use
> > > with apcupsd.
> > > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
> > > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC
> status variables
> > > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
> > > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
> > > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos
> 10.6 - 10. 10)
> > > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ======================================================================
> > > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
> > > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44
> 1522 810839
> > > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
> > > >
> > >
> ======================================================================
> > > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
> > > >
> > > >
> iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYx//mAAoJEPPpO3QWOpTJnY8P/3usgiU54sDE/cwHtXkGhnBm
> > > >
> H4lls1DPGpISDDXZTTRV74Qm6E9qbXP3sScnOvzLviomwwVPCmO3BMLP3TtD/us5
> > > >
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> > > >
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> > > >
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> > > >
> IQiExs3mGypiKNPzPTNfJOMz9qGsomagCuO7ntL4owLnmynfJalkcQ0Bd6xlKNhG
>
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Ted Mittelstaedt-5
In reply to this post by Mihalik Máté
This is one of the oldest lines of baloney out there.  Back in 1984 when
I entered the High Tech workforce people were saying exactly
the same thing about how the older products were built to last and
the newer ones quickly fell apart.

Nobody deliberately designs products to fail.  Instead they design
products to be built to cost a specific amount.  Years ago APC sold
UPSes mostly to techs and administrators.  Admins bought BackUPSes to
protect old VAX and other Unix systems that could only shutdown
with dumb signalling.  They bought them to protect phone systems,
alarms and other stuff that couldn't make use of signalling at all.
They bought smartUPSes to protect servers that could use smart
signalling.  The BackUPSes were cheaper than the SmartUPSes so
that's why they did it.

But today the phone systems are VoIP running on Linux and the Vax
is replaced by a Linux server that can talk smart signalling.  The
alarms and such are in the server room and plugged into the big UPS
that's powering a bunch of servers.  There's no need for a UPS that
just does dumb signalling.

So instead the BackUPS are being bought by the consumers who barely know
what a UPS is.  Those people will walk into the store and see a cheap
Chinese cyber power UPS with the same VA rating as a more expensive APC
UPS and 90% of the time they will buy the cheap UPS because they
honestly don't know the difference.  APC knows that which
is why BackUPSes to day all come in plastic cases and are cost-reduced
throwaway construction.  This is why a brand new BackUPS 500 ES cannot
talk to apcupsd anymore but a model that is 7 years old can.  This is
done to meet a specific price point in that market and a race to the
bottom happens in that market.

This is a different market and yes it calls for a different marketing
strategy but if I were to go to APC who was buying a certain transistor
in quantity for their BackUPS and tell them I could supply that
transistor for the same cost, but it would be twice as reliable as what
they are getting now - I'd get the business.

Ted


On 3/25/2017 8:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

> Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
> preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now
> companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for
> multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people
> wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the
> long run.  Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones
> in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a
> long time. I find this later one less important when talking about
> consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through
> time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this
> back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find
> little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old
> this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that
> I replaced the old capacitors.
>
> You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've
> seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original
> batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.
> Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no
> use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made
> in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized
> extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units
> every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you
> will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.
>
> 2017. márc. 25. du. 3:41 ezt írta ("William Smith"
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>):
>
>     Oh, c'mon guys, be nice. We all know that failure rates and modes
>     are complex and require good statistical inputs and analysis.
>
>     Everyone here is seeing (essentially) anecdotal evidence at best.
>     Unless some of us have seen thousands of failed UPSen and done root
>     cause analysis on them, and not even APC is doing that for their
>     older units.
>
>     IME the cheaper units (BE550, etc), when they need new batteries,
>     have maybe 50% chance of needing a new UPS, as something's gone
>     wrong in the electronics. Only in rare circumstances do I bother to
>     get a new battery and re-qualify the used unit. Higher-end units
>     (SUA1000 class) nearly always work fine with new batteries, again IME.
>
>     Speaking of batteries, how do people like the RefurbUPS
>     replacements?  While I've had issues with their refurbished UPS
>     units, their batteries seem OK. I tend to swap them out after 3-ish
>     years anyway, as they are well under 50% capacity by then. On the
>     other tentacle, they are in a warm environment (up to 95F, 32C in
>     the summer months) so I don't feel they are awful.
>
>     Sent from my iPhone
>
>     On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Pavel Boček <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>>     I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going bad
>>     about now.
>>
>>
>>     Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.
>>
>>
>>     So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you
>>     don't see it than there is no point in further discussion.
>>
>>
>>     Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired
>>     them) so I know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on,
>>     continue making statements with no knowledge of the electronics…
>>
>>
>>     --
>>     S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>>
>>     Pavel Boček
>>     Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     +420 739 190 151 <tel:+420%20739%20190%20151>
>>     http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>>     aj./capacitors and more)
>>     http://www.hardwareinsights.com <http://www.hardwareinsights.com>
>>     (power supply reviews and more)
>>
>>     ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
>>     Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Komu: [hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
>>     Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd
>>     compatible apc to buy?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         On 3/19/2017 6:40 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:
>>         > 1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider)
>>         > generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA
>>         models), they
>>         > have much shorter average lifespan.
>>         >
>>
>>         That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS
>>         manufactured in
>>         2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in terms of
>>         lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going then
>>         it has
>>         lasted 19 years. If the
>>         UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1
>>         year.
>>         Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.
>>
>>         You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current
>>         generation of
>>         UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can do now
>>         is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the
>>         failure rates
>>         are comparable.
>>
>>         Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are
>>         overcharging
>>         batteries.
>>
>>         >
>>         > Haven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always
>>         around
>>         > 13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process
>>         removes the
>>         > source of that so I have not noticed.
>>         >
>>
>>         You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries when
>>         you
>>         remove them when they have worn out, and how long the
>>         batteries last.
>>
>>         >
>>         > As for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all.
>>         Absoluje majority
>>         > of SLA is AGM.
>>         >
>>
>>         Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they
>>         are more
>>         expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
>>         expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being better
>>         and so
>>         when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
>>         compounded by the battery retailers who stock the
>>         garbage-grade cheapest
>>         lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
>>         the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years
>>         maximum
>>         then they go back to the battery store and complain and the
>>         battery
>>         retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.
>>
>>         But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are still
>>         buying
>>         gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper than the
>>         good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
>>         you will find gel cells not AGM in them.
>>
>>         Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers flood
>>         the market
>>         with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of the
>>         average
>>         AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay a
>>         premium
>>         for them.
>>
>>         trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
>>         more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad name.
>>
>>         Ted
>>
>>         >
>>         > --
>>         > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>>         >
>>         > Pavel Boček
>>         > Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > +420 739 190 151 <tel:+420%20739%20190%20151>
>>         > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>>         aj./capacitors
>>         > and more)
>>         > http://www.hardwareinsights.com
>>         <http://www.hardwareinsights.com> (power supply reviews and more)
>>         >
>>         > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
>>         > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>         > Komu: [hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
>>         > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd
>>         compatible
>>         > apc to buy?
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of
>>         UPSes.
>>         >
>>         > Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the
>>         years. They
>>         > used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure
>>         rate on
>>         > the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older
>>         steel-enclosed
>>         > SmartUPSes.
>>         >
>>         > But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different
>>         than the old
>>         > SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500
>>         UPSes fail.
>>         >
>>         > And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery
>>         charger voltage
>>         > has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they
>>         got older.
>>         > It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery
>>         charger voltage
>>         > down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
>>         >
>>         > With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line
>>         Panasonic
>>         > lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the
>>         time that the
>>         > cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you
>>         really are
>>         > absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger
>>         voltage. Then
>>         > they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
>>         >
>>         > Ted
>>         >
>>         > On 3/16/2017 7:29 AM, Pavel Boček wrote:
>>         > > It is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan
>>         it has, on
>>         > > average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still
>>         kick for a few
>>         > > years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer
>>         generations 5
>>         > > years old in the same state. It is partially because of
>>         the newer the
>>         > > unit, the worse components you find inside.
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         > > However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20
>>         years. The
>>         > > only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it
>>         made by
>>         > > somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
>>         > buy'n'pray it
>>         > > will last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper
>>         plastics. I
>>         > do not
>>         > > however trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so
>>         long as the old
>>         > > ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than
>>         constant tiny
>>         > > upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some
>>         > "warranty
>>         > > engineering" in mind.
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         > > --
>>         > > S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
>>         > >
>>         > > Pavel Boček
>>         > > Jabber: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > > +420 739 190 151 <tel:+420%20739%20190%20151>
>>         > > http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
>>         > aj./capacitors
>>         > > and more)
>>         > > http://www.hardwareinsights.com
>>         <http://www.hardwareinsights.com> (power supply reviews and more)
>>         > >
>>         > > ---------- Původní zpráva ----------
>>         > > Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>         > > Komu: [hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > > Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
>>         > > Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd
>>         compatible
>>         > > apc to buy?
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         > > On 3/14/2017 7:36 AM, fergus mcmenemie wrote:
>>         > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>         > > > Hash: SHA512
>>         > > >
>>         > > > Ted, thanks for the advice. I guess the summary is:
>>         > > >
>>         > > > The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
>>         > > >
>>         > >
>>         > > NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
>>         > >
>>         > > > Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
>>         > > >
>>         > >
>>         > > "recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report
>>         back as
>>         > > close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It
>>         does not
>>         > > mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this
>>         > > different
>>         > > kind of battery I want to use"
>>         > >
>>         > > > All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
>>         > > >
>>         > > > Skip and replace the APC every three years.
>>         > > >
>>         > >
>>         > > Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured
>>         in the last 5
>>         > > years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it
>>         came with,
>>         > that
>>         > > are high quality, then it will likely work as well and for
>>         as long
>>         > > as it
>>         > > did when new.
>>         > >
>>         > > It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel
>>         cells anymore.
>>         > > Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are
>>         AGM. Whether
>>         > > they will last longer and thus justify their higher
>>         expense - who the
>>         > > heck, knows.
>>         > >
>>         > > > I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware"
>>         UPS. Based on
>>         > > > modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp
>>         and voltage
>>         > > > sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have
>>         endlessly
>>         > > > support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could
>>         it be much
>>         > > > worse than APC?
>>         > > >
>>         > >
>>         > > There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS
>>         really does I
>>         > > think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
>>         > > inefficient way of storing power.
>>         > >
>>         > > Look at it this way. You have a network device like a
>>         router. It has
>>         > > a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell
>>         array that
>>         > > on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
>>         > >
>>         > > You want to power the network device.
>>         > >
>>         > > Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the
>>         solar array
>>         > > to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to
>>         an inverter
>>         > > that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's
>>         power
>>         > > supply which converts it back down to 5v
>>         > >
>>         > > This is essentially how a UPS operates.
>>         > >
>>         > > The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into
>>         one of
>>         > these
>>         > > chips:
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         >
>>         http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323
>>         <http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323>
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         > > This part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an
>>         efficiency well
>>         > > above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the
>>         router power
>>         > > supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No
>>         battery
>>         > needed.
>>         > >
>>         > > We do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting
>>         wall AC power
>>         > > to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that
>>         might have even
>>         > > been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
>>         > >
>>         > > With electrical power, you can trade convenience for
>>         efficiency. A
>>         > > UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up
>>         efficiency in power
>>         > > savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is
>>         the most
>>         > > important, you will be more than happy to give up long
>>         battery life
>>         > > since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
>>         > > wet cells.
>>         > >
>>         > > This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased
>>         to run off
>>         > > 48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
>>         > > inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the
>>         max battery
>>         > > life they do not want to waste any battery power on
>>         inverters, so
>>         > > they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power
>>         everything off
>>         > > the 48v power.
>>         > >
>>         > > Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac
>>         Mini. Well,
>>         > > what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just
>>         > scrap the
>>         > > Mini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely
>>         need a
>>         > UPS at
>>         > > all.
>>         > >
>>         > > Ted
>>         > >
>>         > > > Fergus.
>>         > > >
>>         > > >
>>         > > > On 27 Jan 2017, at 12:22, Ted Mittelstaedt
>>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>         > > wrote:
>>         > > >> Hi Fergus,
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you
>>         contact APC
>>         > > >> technical support and ask a presales question they will
>>         tell
>>         > you the
>>         > > >> same thing. there's no difference in types of batteries
>>         the XP
>>         > units
>>         > > >> just have more batteries that's all.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't
>>         > work. The
>>         > > >> components in their battery charger have drifted to the
>>         point
>>         > > that the
>>         > > >> battery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens
>>         the lifespan
>>         > > >> quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle
>>         batteries but
>>         > > >> I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells
>>         today is
>>         > > >> probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping
>>         expensive though.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
>>         > > regardless of
>>         > > >> what the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
>>         > batteries.
>>         > > >> That would have to be done with a custom cable since I
>>         don't think
>>         > > >> they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY
>>         lead acid
>>         > > battery
>>         > > >> even deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your
>>         trollng motor
>>         > > will
>>         > > >> be killed by drawing down to flat.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid
>>         gel cells.
>>         > > You
>>         > > >> must use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR
>>         as part of
>>         > > >> their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new
>>         UPSes but I
>>         > > have
>>         > > >> seen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel
>>         the APC
>>         > > label back
>>         > > >> and read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little
>>         trick of
>>         > > APC's
>>         > > >> to make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how
>>         long they
>>         > > last.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> Essentially the gel cells last the longest when:
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> 1) kept cool
>>         > > >> 2) low drawdown currents
>>         > > >> 3) don't draw past 20% remaining
>>         > > >> 4) not fast-recharged
>>         > > >> 5) Not undercharged
>>         > > >> 6) not overcharged
>>         > > >> 7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell
>>         lead-acid
>>         > > batteries
>>         > > >> which are much tougher.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery
>>         charger and
>>         > > their
>>         > > >> UPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the
>>         batteries they use
>>         > > >> in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory
>>         loaded
>>         > > batteries
>>         > > >> last the longest. It's hard to find a replacement
>>         battery 3 or 4
>>         > > years
>>         > > >> later that is a match.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter
>>         on the
>>         > > battery
>>         > > >> terminals and measure the float charge voltage then
>>         compare it to
>>         > > the
>>         > > >> battery-manufacturer-specified recommended float
>>         voltage. In my
>>         > > opinion
>>         > > >> this is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> Ted
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a
>>         generator.
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >>
>>         > > >> On 1/26/2017 1:38 AM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>         > > >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>         > > >>> Hash: SHA512
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>> Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very
>>         interesting, and as
>>         > > >>> usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>> On 23 Jan 2017, at 10:04, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>         > > >>>> Hi Fergus,
>>         > > >>>>
>>         > > >>>> Couple of things I think you may be not very
>>         knowledgeable about:
>>         > > >>>>
>>         > > >>>> 1) sizing and runtime. APC makes 3 general versions
>>         of UPSs:
>>         > > >>>>
>>         > > >>>> Regular
>>         > > >>>> Extended Length (indicated by the X)
>>         > > >>>> Online
>>         > > >>>>
>>         > > >>>> A regular UPS is really intended for short power
>>         outages of
>>         > > less than 10
>>         > > >>>> minutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC
>>         upses are
>>         > > this
>>         > > >>>> way. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have
>>         very high VA
>>         > > ratings
>>         > > >>>> and quite small batteries.
>>         > > >>>>
>>         > > >>>> XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can
>>         have external
>>         > > battery
>>         > > >>>> packs added.
>>         > > >>>>
>>         > > >>>> Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run
>>         continuously
>>         > > these are
>>         > > >>>> best for really sensitive gear that might reboot if
>>         there was a
>>         > > >>>> momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay
>>         switching
>>         > > between the
>>         > > >>>> main power and inverter power.
>>         > > >>>> To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
>>         > > intended use is.
>>         > > >>> XL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I
>>         have to
>>         > > replace the
>>         > > >>> batteries every three or four years. We 'discover'
>>         they need
>>         > > replaced in
>>         > > >>> that they wont keep the server going for more than a few
>>         > > seconds. Replaced
>>         > > >>> batteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict
>>         runtime
>>         > > or capacity.
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>> The protected device is a single macmini. New
>>         batteries can
>>         > > easily keep
>>         > > >>> it going for about an hour.
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>> I guess the key difference between an Regular and
>>         Extended Life
>>         > > models will
>>         > > >>> be the battery type. Is it to match the replacement
>>         battery to
>>         > > the APC model?
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>> 2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You
>>         must add
>>         > > probes
>>         > > >>>> to get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS
>>         generally don't
>>         > > display
>>         > > >>>> any temps.
>>         > > >>> Over the years I have found the internal APC temp
>>         sensor a very
>>         > > useful
>>         > > >>> proxy for all kinds of weird things going on around
>>         the server.
>>         > > Wouldn't
>>         > > >>> do without it.
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>> 3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a
>>         battery
>>         > > lifetime.
>>         > > >>>> The first is about a day or so after the batteries
>>         have been
>>         > > installed
>>         > > >>>> and allowed to completely charge. The second is about
>>         halfway
>>         > > through
>>         > > >>>> the battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run
>>         regularly
>>         > > and if
>>         > > >>>> it is, you will drastically shorten battery life
>>         (such as by
>>         > > 2/3 of it's
>>         > > >>>> lifespan)
>>         > > >>> Understood and I only really try it on new batteries.
>>         However I
>>         > > have NEVER
>>         > > >>> successfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name)
>>         battery.
>>         > > Hence the real
>>         > > >>> reason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
>>         > > calibration that
>>         > > >>> works. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries
>>         over the
>>         > > years.
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>> 4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost
>>         flat" it
>>         > > severely
>>         > > >>>> shortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get
>>         about 10
>>         > > >>>> "flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And,
>>         only when
>>         > > it's new.
>>         > > >>>> Drawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down
>>         flat almost
>>         > > always
>>         > > >>>> will kill it.
>>         > > >>> Ok, this is news to me. I see info on the web
>>         suggesting that
>>         > > Yuasa NP?
>>         > > >>> batteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I
>>         misreading
>>         > > the info.
>>         > > >>> However if I could calibrate them I would happily
>>         ensure they
>>         > > only got
>>         > > >>> 50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is
>>         configured to
>>         > > discharge
>>         > > >>> to 80%. But given calibration fails...
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>> 5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
>>         > > >>> Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>> 6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine
>>         when main
>>         > > power
>>         > > >>>> appears is an excellent way to kill the machine
>>         because in
>>         > > probably 50%
>>         > > >>>> of the power outages, when power comes back on there
>>         will be
>>         > > about 2-3
>>         > > >>>> minutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
>>         > > drops. Since
>>         > > >>>> the UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop
>>         power to
>>         > > the load
>>         > > >>>> and that's right during the time the PC is booting.
>>         Basically,
>>         > > if the
>>         > > >>>> machine is within driving distance - you should NEVER
>>         configure
>>         > > it to
>>         > > >>>> automatically startup when power comes back after a
>>         power loss.
>>         > > >>> Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature
>>         of the cuts
>>         > > we see.
>>         > > >>> However the period of flakey power lasts around 10min
>>         in most
>>         > > cases, hence
>>         > > >>> my goal of trying to keep the server going for
>>         30-40min. That
>>         > > normally
>>         > > >>> see us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is
>>         longer than
>>         > > an hour
>>         > > >>> (we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then
>>         the server
>>         > > can
>>         > > >>> be shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of
>>         over an hour
>>         > > we see
>>         > > >>> it is generally reliable. However I do configure the
>>         WAKEUP and
>>         > > RETURNCHARGE
>>         > > >>> values which I thought provided some protection
>>         against "false
>>         > > starts".
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>> Lastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for
>>         long periods
>>         > > of time.
>>         > > >>>> For that you need a generator.
>>         > > >>> An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled
>>         shutdown and
>>         > > killpower.
>>         > > >>>
>>         > > >>>> Ted
>>         > > >>>>
>>         > > >>>> On 1/22/2017 2:54 PM, Fergus McMenemie wrote:
>>         > > >>>>> THis is a resend, but I am intending to buy another
>>         APC UPS
>>         > > and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand
>>         unit.
>>         > > >>>>>
>>         > > >>>>> I have used apcupsd with different APC units over
>>         the years
>>         > > with mixed success. Especially after changing or
>>         recalibrating the
>>         > > batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the
>>         apcupsd to
>>         > > misbehave when it really matters.
>>         > > >>>>>
>>         > > >>>>> I was wondering what is the best most compatible APC
>>         to use
>>         > > with apcupsd.
>>         > > >>>>> -) 1000 or 1500 VA models
>>         > > >>>>> -) logs temperature along with the other APC status
>>         variables
>>         > > >>>>> -) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
>>         > > >>>>> -) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
>>         > > >>>>> -) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6
>>         - 10. 10)
>>         > > >>>>> -) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
>>         > > >>>>>
>>         > > >>>>> Thanks in advance Fergus
>>         > > >
>>         > > >
>>         > >
>>         ======================================================================
>>         > > > Fergus McMenemie Email:[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > > > Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
>>         <tel:+44%207721%20376021>
>>         > > > Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44
>>         1522 810839 <tel:+44%201522%20810839>
>>         > > > Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
>>         > > >
>>         > >
>>         ======================================================================
>>         > > > Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
>>         > > >
>>         > > >
>>         > > >
>>         > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>         > > > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org
>>         > > >
>>         > > >
>>         iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYx//mAAoJEPPpO3QWOpTJnY8P/3usgiU54sDE/cwHtXkGhnBm
>>         > > >
>>         H4lls1DPGpISDDXZTTRV74Qm6E9qbXP3sScnOvzLviomwwVPCmO3BMLP3TtD/us5
>>         > > >
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>>         > > >
>>         4y03IDnVYlOzMM/v8N9KR5qUVzbs0YNjjvIBhi0i4wUuMv0GeNRE6VHPJDJkc16s
>>         > > >
>>         c136pjFQ3whj7G01SatUydAbvk3o0czip0aCEA7KHb5PEPgzn7oRMRBnU7z2gU1z
>>         > > >
>>         /nqjScP5vDv4wpP/+rWCc44AndIWJgXKWb3XlFF1xVhKXM1l4IMby/RkbnYVQ6Vu
>>         > > >
>>         IQiExs3mGypiKNPzPTNfJOMz9qGsomagCuO7ntL4owLnmynfJalkcQ0Bd6xlKNhG
>>         > > >
>>         +2bt/iBO+tCi9mSev4Ptts1Lw+Olr8vt3PVVvWV6jjDfHM16POfv1foUKJr0IgvS
>>         > > >
>>         xxY9VDup3dhy9jGew93M4pnrhtuv5o7wWyliSpalmAqrYjopof/Ge2sEu0OQLylH
>>         > > >
>>         oPv42gJXh2y/EYDvSvmUynM6qWTIpgf3HARTIuyhrpSNKNk8cjFsM9QVZ57/qBan
>>         > > >
>>         KagZAdYz5siJNVF709PeOSedDPjDoQkqMS5Odau3psofQwBcdku8WpnVvpzJLSUh
>>         > > > mjojzo1E/gWx4+HLgkHC
>>         > > > =/1sG
>>         > > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>         > > >
>>         > > >
>>         > >
>>         >
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         > >
>>         > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>>         world's most
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Re: What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?

Trevor Roydhouse
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote on 27/03/2017 09:34:
> So instead the BackUPS are being bought by the consumers who barely
> know what a UPS is.  Those people will walk into the store and see a
> cheap Chinese cyber power UPS with the same VA rating as a more
> expensive APC UPS and 90% of the time they will buy the cheap UPS
> because they honestly don't know the difference.

It is always amusing to check the size of battery used between the two
which speaks volumes :)



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